Welcome to Reliberation Sign in | Help
in
Latest Most Popular Active Watch List Amigos  
I was just thinking...

The Discount Online Brokerage Model

By: Mike Farmer
Monday, May 14, 2007 1:20 PM

Rather than take a defensive stance, or an offensive stance for that matter, against the discount model, I prefer to take an objective look at it. Can it work? Is it limited? Can it sustain itself nationally? Worldwide? What are its weaknesses? What are its strengths? There are hundreds of questions, but I want to look at only a few of my major concerns.

 

First, I am skeptical the model can work on a broad scale for a sustained period of time. I base this partly on case studies done on People Express, the discount airline in the 80s, and its failure. Peter Senge, in his book, The Fifth Discipline, describes People Express’ downward spiral due to poor service quality and the stubborn idea that people will overlook service to get a low-price flight. Their customer base eroded, and they went down baffled and whirling.

 

That doesn’t mean discount brokers are doomed to the same fate, but it brings up a serious concern regarding the viability of their model. If they do realize customer service is vital to longevity, then they will have to balance the service demands of consumers with price. I recently read in a Seattle paper that customers are demanding home tours from the local discounter and that they are providing this on a limited basis.  How committed are salaried agents to show homes because demand is forcing them to do it on a limited basis? Just like our clients and customers demand more from us and want to pay less, discounter’s customers will demand higher and higher levels of service, but they will want the same sweet deal discounters offer.

 

Discounters will be forced to choose between service and price, or they will come up with creative ideas to balance the two that is successful. The problem I see is that with buyers demanding home showings, agents will be taken away from the office and computer. If they limit the homes they show, then customers who want to see more will be frustrated and go to traditional agents. If they decide to provide more effort in showing homes then they will have to hire home-showing agents, in addition to their in-house computer agents. This will raise costs and cause agents to wonder why they are not with a traditional broker where they can get higher pay for their time and effort. Perhaps they will get compensated through a bonus based on customer satisfaction, as one discounter advertises.

 

In order to satisfy a buyer, once you have set the wheels in motion, you will have to either provide good service, or be so charismatic that the consumer doesn’t notice. If they are drawing their agents from a pool of people who are primarily interested in online computer work, I doubt these computer-agents will be happy if they have to go out and show houses, or meet clients in the office (which the Seattle paper also said was a demand the discounter has begun to give in to). Knowing types of personalities is vital to the job you expect them to do.

 

What I foresee is the discounter having to recruit traditional agents to show homes and do some of the traditional real estate work that will be demanded, demanded primarily out of necessity. Now you have a situation where two levels of agents are competing for limited amounts of bonus money, and a situation where the discounter has a huge payroll.

 

The discounter will most likely have to cut costs somewhere, or increase revenue. If the discounter cuts cost it will most likely negatively effect service, since this is a service industry and all costs are connected somehow to service if all extraneous and ineffective costs have already been squeezed out of the system. If the discounter decides to recruit agents who can juggle it all with proficiency they will have to attract them with large salaries and healthy bonus schemes to equal what they can get in the traditional commission structure.

 

If they begin increasing revenue by charging more to the consumer they erode their model and move closer to a distinction without a difference. Their claims of a model that will save sellers and buyers millions will be suspect.

 

I suspect that with their original mindset, and the fact they have based their model on price, they will sacrifice service. This will limit their customer base to price-conscious consumers, and even this base will erode if service gets too bad and value is almost non-existent. These consumers will decide to do it all by themselves.

 

These are just a few concerns. I can think of more, but I am tired of typing.

<< Read More at Reliberation.com

Comments

Mary Welch
Member Since '04

Mary Welch said:

May I add, they will find that they are not LEADING,

No one is FOLLOWING,

So they will be forced to GET OUT OF THE WAY.

I don't see it as a long term success.

This is still and will always be a service industry.

Good blog!!

May 14, 2007 12:27 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike your right on the money. Level heads will prevail. There have been other discount brokers and they all will need to adjust their charges. Foxton was the 2% guy until that didn't work. Then they were the 3% guy and now they charge 4%. Still the same crappy service but they are at 4%. In real estate there have been others, but we all know there are fixed costs and variable costs in the business model. I guess the guy who launches these new business ventures forget some of the variables we pay for to service our clients. Does every deal need to be done at 6%? No, but you better have a few at that rate or you will soon be walking your clients from house to house. People seem to forget that the price of a car, clothing, food, as well as shelter has gone up. A percentage of the gross is the best way to adjust to inflation. When someone asks to adjust your commission based on what you are able to get them for their house - it is adjusted. Some people will believe any scheme that is presented claiming a reduced cost to them. Look at our utility companies. Has anyone's gotten a lower electric, telephone, natural gas bill from the de-regulation?

May 14, 2007 12:36 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I was tickled to see in several articles, it was called a revolution. LOL, talk about hyperbole! That would be like the boy on the corner with a lemonaide stand claiming he is transfoming the soft-drink industry.

I think "revolution" is a little premature. Of course, I have an open mind to new models, but this particular model, as it is, seems flawed.

May 14, 2007 12:40 PM
Ginny  Lee's Team
Member Since '03

Ginny Lee's Team said:

Hi Mark,

Did you see 60 minutes last night?

It looked like they were promoting the discount Broker and made the

National Association of Realtors look bad because we were trying to keep them out of business.

It also made Realtors look like they made too much money for doing nothing...I was really disappointed and I think NAR should have a comback.

If you didn' see it go to

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/11/60minutes/main2790865.shtml

What the forgot to mention that the homes usually sell for less money and that only 1% of the homes for sale by owner sell.

Please let me know what you think...I agree with your comments above!

May 14, 2007 12:43 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Yes, Ganny :),

I saw it. It was slanted, but it was done for ratings. Most intelligent, level headed people have caught on to these trumped-up exposes. The only ones who got their jollies from the propaganda were people who hate realtors and anything that resembles success. These people love the concept of an underdog coming along and knocking the greedy robber-barons on their keisters.

I actually appreciate the underdog story, too, but only if it is a real story based in fact, not if it is a mostly media driven hack job.

May 14, 2007 1:05 PM
Scott Simmons
Member Since '07

Scott Simmons said:

Everyone on this blog should sign up with Redfin and give them a whirl.

They have a great drip email system. It is worth seeing their model first hand.

If customers are going to ask about them it is better to know everything about them and all their fees like home viewing.

I do like the way they meet with customers in cafe I'm going to copy this and use it in my marketing.

May 14, 2007 1:09 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I've been meeting customers in cafes for years. No, wait, I met them in bars -- oh well, same concept.

May 14, 2007 1:12 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Mike - I couldn’t agree more with your assesment. I agree the plan is flawed and time will be the judge. As with any business model, you only see the flaws as you progrees with the plan. Redfin and their counter parts will eventually come to realize the service industry is not called the service industry because they want less or poorer service.

On the lighter side; Tickled is a colloquialism used prdomantliety in the south meaning “I found that Funny”.  However if you add pink to the word as in “tickeled pink”,  its usage becomes much braoder in scoop. However it is only in southern Florida that Mark is synonimus with Mike and the two are interchangable. Right Ginna? :)

May 14, 2007 1:25 PM
Becky Troutt
Member Since '05

Becky Troutt said:

LOL...can we call you Mark Firmer now?

.....discount brokerages will always pop up here and there.  Will they last?  No one can say for certain.  I wish I had a crystal ball to see.  We used to have a large one around here called Home Discovery.  You would see signs everywhere a couple years ago.  Now....very very rarely do you see one of their signs.

Really the only one's you see around here anymore are Buy-Owner and Assist-to-fail...I mean Assist-to-sell.

I'm sure there are some people that have good luck with those companies, but I have heard plenty of nightmare stories myself of people that have tried them and then switched.

I like when they compare buying a book ar a plane ticket online to buying a home online.  I think there is just a wee bit of a difference between them!

May 14, 2007 1:26 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

predominately - ok I didn't proof it - arrest me! Hell I got colloquialism right!

May 14, 2007 1:31 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

but I missed synonymous too!

May 14, 2007 1:34 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I'm taking 50 points off your PI, Gary. But I'm adding 60 points for colloquialism.

May 14, 2007 1:38 PM
Kristi Miller
Member Since '06

Kristi Miller said:

I always note an undertone of animosity when it comes to new agents with new ideas...  LOL.  

I am a new agent, but I have a very old school philosophy (customer service and being straight forward), and so agree with the general concensus against the discount model discussed here.  

However, in the market upheaval that has been changing my local area from insanely hot Seller's market to a cool (but not cold) Buyer's market, I can see why many brokerages and markets are struggling to be competitive and innovative.  Seller's here seemingly decided the cooling market was all due to bad agents and went FSBO, eventually realizing it wasn't the agents' fault after all.  Then the dicounters stepped in and virtually (no pun intended) took over.  Now there is a backlash beginning on that unsuccessful turn as well.  Hopefully people realize "you get what you pay for" as my mother always said.

Here is what I wrote in another similar thread about my broker's new idea that I think may work to keep us competitive, as well as ethical and honest:

<<<<< "the big blue signs" around my local area dominate the listings market [due to the discount/little-to-no service concept]. And your listed affects are what I hear those same sellers complaining about 6 months later when it still isn't sold.  They got no realistic pricing strategy, marketing other than placement on MLS or sutomer service of any kind.  

However, I want to point out something new my broker is experimenting with - an adjustable scale of commission schedule with matching marketing plans that the Seller can choose from.  Commissions, agency, pricing, CMA, marketing is all explained as usual, and then we present a "menu" and they can decide the services they want and a correlating commission.  I call it "a la carte."  This allows our non-franchise agency to keep up with the new expectations of our local Sellers and the changing market, while still doing everything we can to give them the exact kind of service they are looking for.  

It is worth a try IMO...I am sick of giving my "I am worth 6% and here's why" and they still pick some slacker who will list their home for 4% and not be honest about their marketing plan - Nada!>>>>  

May 14, 2007 2:21 PM
Howard Arnoff
Member Since '03

Howard Arnoff said:

Great post Mike. You can choose to drive a Lexus or a Chevy knowing you either get you to your destination but the Lexus will be a more comfortable ride. People don't expect the same quality without paying for it.

As to 60 Minutes, I'm beginning to think of it as an informercial for Redfin. They have proven themselves to be great at public relations; now, let's watch as they fail to live up to their promises. Ooops, they aren't promising anything except some money back for not doing anything.

May 14, 2007 2:44 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Kristi, what you describe is Fee For Service, used by real estate consultants.

You can get education, certification, accreditation etc. via NAREC or ACRE:

http://www.narec.com

http://www.acrealestate.info/

I have used FFS in situations where a seller needed unbundled (a la carte) services and as long as both parties (agent and client) stick exactly to the agreement, it can be a good experience for both.

Tell your broker to check into the E/O implications of FFS. I know on my E/O, how many transactions using FFS is taken into consideration when renewing my policy.

May 14, 2007 2:54 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Kristi

I have never detected an undertone of animosity; normally the agents on this blog have no trouble letting there feeling show for all to see.

Your broker’s “Ala Carte” plan is not a new one or one that is not available in a lot of markets. I have even considered it myself. I opted not to go with it only because I see it as a disservice to my clients. If I seriously thought that I could eliminate something and they could do without it or do it as well as myself than I should just eliminate it, reduce the cost and give it to everyone.

Markets always change but that doesn’t mean that you always abandon what has worked in the past. It only means you make the adjustment necessary to make sure the results are obtained. There will be a time when you abandon an old practice for a new. The internet and marketing on it is a great example. In my opinion it has replaced the printed ad.

However the discount model and the less service (Ala Carte) model does not replace, it eliminates things that I have deemed necessary to produce the results. It is results that we get paid for and to eliminate some that I feel are crucial to the process means I have to abandon my belief that it was important in the first place.

I have no animosity, nor do I really care what anyone else chooses to do as long as it is ethical and doesn’t hurt the general concept of my industry.  Your Mother was a wise person when she told you that you get what you pay for, since to go against that and choose to eliminate something for the sake of saving a dollar is counter productive if it does not facilitate the sale or purchase.

My agents are permitted to put together any plan they feel will benefit their clients. None has been able to show the benefits from eliminating essential services. A good sales gimmick but not in their clients best interest.  

Explain to me how it helps and I will not hesitate to change my business model since it is highly dependant on the success of my agents in order for me to make a profit. I only make money when they do and any idea that can help is always welcome, regardless of how long you have been in the industry.

May 14, 2007 2:54 PM
Kristi Miller
Member Since '06

Kristi Miller said:

Thanks for all the input, Gary.  

I think my point was no matter what I have experienced and how I explain it to my clients, a lot of them tend to only see the bottom dollar, so I let them decide what they think is important, but ALWAYS included are those things I have found helpful, successful or invaluable, i.e. service and all my effort.  I do not short my clients on that at any time.  

That said, I only include certain services that I have found supremely unsuccessful (traditionally done and therefore expected by clients whom you cannot tell don't work - like open houses and newspaper ads), but are insisted on by the client.  Those things are what I add to the higher priced plans because they are extremely costly and have shown me very poor numbers, but some Sellers are convinced no matter what I show them that it has to be done in order to sell their home.  I have not seen any success at all with traditional print marketing in my area and I believe it is all but dead, so I charge extra for having to do it for certain clients because it is so costly to me with typically no return.  

I think this is a great compromise between the bargain shopping client and the full-price-only brokerage.

May 14, 2007 3:12 PM
Carol and Steve Coldwell Banker Parker Realty
Member Since '05

Carol and Steve Coldwell Banker Parker Realty said:

We are trying out the menus in the next few months as well.  Right now we do a lot more marketing than other agents and charge the same fee.  So we are planning to STILL do a little more than other agents for the same fee but we will do ALOT more than other agents for a higher fee.  We think we are worth it and if people want to take the lowest one, that's fine, but we will not include all the extras that we will at a higher commission.  Some of the extras aren't important to clients and that's fair..it will make our jobs easier as well.  If they choose the lowest commission, they can always upgrade at a later date.  I don't know how our menus will be received by the public but I think if we believe in our value, it will make a big difference.  

And people like to have choices.  One of our choices is half a percentage lower than what most agents charge.  

May 14, 2007 3:13 PM
Phil Anderson
Member Since '04

Phil Anderson said:

Hi Candice.

Thanks for the heads up.

I’m going to check the E/O for FFS ASAP, as soon as I see my GP DR for my MRI results.  FYI, he thinks the MSL is givin’ me IBS, but I know it’s either all those FSBOs or my recent payment to the IRS based on 1099s and W-2s.

:)

May 14, 2007 3:21 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Carol, Steve, Kristi

If you went to the doctor and he told you have these choices to cure your disease but I would like to give you an option of choosing the things I will do based on the cost of each, you would probably head for the door. Sometimes I think we forget who the professional in this business are.

No professional in any other business offers alternative ways to effect results. If I for a minute thought the client could make an informed and good decision on how best to market his home and it was better than I could bring to the table, I would not hesitate to offer it. But like my doctor analogy, if I said look radiation has a good chance of curing this now but if we wait it probably won’t work, the client would probably opt for the right choice. The alternatives that you will offer will be less life threatening and the odds are they will opt for the less costly route. If they don’t sell their home because they have chosen the cheap route, have you done them a service or disservice?  

I don’t fault anyone for trying to compete with the less service industry but I caution you that to fall in line with them also means you are providing what makes us stand apart and in my opinion is needed.

Competition makes us stronger by making us leaner and meaner but it doesn’t mean giving up what we know to be true. Sharpen your presentation and make the right comparisons and you will find that it is just another objection that when explained properly will result in a service to your new client.

May 14, 2007 3:33 PM
Ginny  Lee's Team
Member Since '03

Ginny Lee's Team said:

I agree 100% with Gary and Phil you are so funny....keep it up!

We all need to laugh in this business!

May 14, 2007 4:11 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

ROFL, Phil! OMG, IMO U should KO your DR and CPA--4 BSing U  ;)

Gary . . . I'm very particular about who I propose a FFS  arrangement with, for many of the reasons you stated. But, there are situations where it was the perfect solution.

For instance, I sold a house for a couple who owns 2 regional newspapers and are very well connected. The last thing they needed me for was marketing! They did their own flyers, marketing materials, ads -- all with my branding. The trade off was 1% of my fee. So it was a win-win.

May 14, 2007 4:24 PM
Carol and Steve Coldwell Banker Parker Realty
Member Since '05

Carol and Steve Coldwell Banker Parker Realty said:

Gary,

I see your point for sure, but there are some services we offer that people don't really put a value on and they don't care about.  So we don't necessarily have to do them for those people.  There are extras that we do that take up more of our time and more of our marketing money, so we feel we should be able to charge a higher commission for them if the customer wants them.  Even at the lower commission rate, the lowest on the menu, we do more than other realtors as our marketing is way more advanced than most realtors here on PEI.  And even at that lower commission, we still offer a higher excellent customer service.  But if people want some other "extras" that we are willing to offer and put more money out to do, then that should be a choice they can make as well.  I think people want to have a choice.  What a doctor offers is necessary while some of the "extras" we offer is not necessary in selling or marketing a home but some people still want them.  

It's all new to us so I will keep you posted on how it goes.  

May 14, 2007 4:48 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Candice - In your situation there was no diminished sercie and with anything there are exceptions. For that case an FFS is ok. But to adopt it for all in my oppinion is a mistak.

By the way, Gregory is the one that Bsings, not Phil, but I don't think Gregory knows what key he is in, he's on med's uknow.  Why are we using code now? I lost my decoder ring 50 years ago. Where is Captain Midnight when you need him?

May 14, 2007 4:55 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

sh.. service. sorry Phil

May 14, 2007 4:56 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

I agree with Gary . . . but not on the BS'ing . . . I was right the first time. I just forgot to punch-a-tate . . . LOL

May 14, 2007 5:47 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Can anyone help me find my duck? He walks like a duck, quacks like a duck............

May 14, 2007 6:26 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I have found your duck and have safely secured it for you.

http://www.cybersalt.org/cl_images/1zzzzya/d/ducktape.jpg

May 14, 2007 6:37 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

The duck is missing its black leather mask and spiked collar.  ;)

May 14, 2007 6:42 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Ouch! Don't mess with Candice.

May 14, 2007 6:45 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, I'll share my meds with my duck. Please let him go.

May 14, 2007 6:47 PM
Scott McClain
Member Since '06

Scott McClain said:

Mike,

My stance, defensive, offensive is not about the discounters. Could care less either way regarding them. There is enough business for us all.

My stance about the article that started all this was the fact that she was accusing us of not earning our money and suggesting that we too should discount because we don't work for it.

I am sure you agree that you earn your money and you work hard for it.

May 14, 2007 7:04 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Scott,

I wasn't responding to anything anyone here wrote. I was writing about online discounters and prefacing it with the intent to try to write objectively.

I wasn't saying anyone has been defensive or offensive. I didn't even read your post. I got here late today and didn't read through everything.

Yes, I earn my money.

May 14, 2007 7:17 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Scott, tonight CBS blamed the failing US auto industry on its workers. Apparently, they make in a life time almost as much as Katie Curic makes in a year. Everyone's a target. Only you can make it stick.

May 14, 2007 7:18 PM
John  Bourassa
Member Since '03

John Bourassa said:

Mike,

You are so thorough in your thought process that it is impossible to counter you.

Can you dummy up a bit so we can argue with you now and agian?

_________

Gary,

You must be writing behind your wife's back, again!  She' not proofing your stuff.  

John

May 14, 2007 9:23 PM
Mipeco Realty, Inc -  Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner
Member Since '03

Mipeco Realty, Inc - Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner said:

I have done my share of discounted services and still do offer these on a case by case basis but I know one thing ... I have yet to play with the idea of discounting buyer services ... still not sure how I feel about it but when it comes to listings ... it was easy to charge little money on the listing side when properties would sell within a few days or weeks but nowadays, realistically, it's time to charge higher commission knowing the properties sit on the market for months, and having to anticipate numerous negotiations before the homes finally go under contract (getting three low-ball offers before the one that makes sense finally comes in .... I'm sure you know what I mean). So as much as I am an occasional advocate of discount services, it's all about business ... services the clients and making money.

May 14, 2007 9:56 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Okay, John :)

For the sake of argument I will say I take the reverse position. I couldn't car less about redfin or what Leslie Stahl thinks, but I am interested in the concept of online brokerage and its, so far, flawed attempts at establishing itself through the idea of discounting.

I think we are in the beginning of a revolution, but it will be a combination of traditional real estate practices and new online technology. The key to it all is profitability and improved services, not a mad dash to discount and reduce the pay of real estate agents.

Redfins and hack journalists will come and go, but online marketing of real estate will be an ongoing concern for the new real estate professional.

If 60 Minutes had been smart, they would have taken a comprehensive look at the changing nature of real estate marketing as a whole. THAT would have been interesting.

May 15, 2007 4:51 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I will also add that I have to believe refin is using a cynical ploy to play on public perception of real estate agents as greedy opportunists and to gain entrance into the field through this perception.

However, as I have stated, they have locked themselves into a course of failure, unless they can pull off a balance of price and service that eludes me right now. If they do pull it off, the price of their services will be close to what consumers are already paying for real estate services, so the distinction they are making now is really one that in the long run will have little difference.

The whole field is changing, redfin is just trying to capitalize on the change by creating the perception they are wild-eyed revolutionaries leading the peasants to the gates of the kingdom with ther axes and pitchforks.

To expose their cynical ploy we have to present  passionate but objective answers, answers based on facts and real information, comparisons, numbers, and the fact that we are now online players and were before redfin.

To me, there are two main ways to educate the public: show them that discounters are using them in a cynical way, and to provide better service that can be objectively verified and communicated.

People don't like to be duped. They can handle the truth if it makes good common sense.

So, really, I don't think any of us are saying anything here that is debatable among ourselves. It's just that I am more interested in studying the discounters' model so that I am sure I understand why it won't work, and is actually bad for consumers. If I can't determine that, and come up with good answers, then I am merely posturing and protecting turf.

Too many industries have been wrecked by arrogance and a reactionary stance. The industry is changing, it just needs to be smart change, keeping in mind it is above all else a service industry.

May 15, 2007 5:32 AM
Klaus Nicholson
Member Since '07

Klaus Nicholson said:

My broker has various structured services and fee options available. He did this in response to some of the dicounters.  In a year he got two listings...they sat forever.  Live and let live, if somebody is willing to try something new and risk their money and time good for them.  

I didn't read any comments about what Scott said.  I have received several recruiting emails  from  (Fedrin) and DrakeinAtlanta. (We'll show you all the homes you want on the computer, we'll show you five homes in person and then we have to charge you more for the sixth.)  Again if it works, good for them.

Good post Mike

May 15, 2007 8:54 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Thanks, Klaus. I agree, if it works, count me in -- SHOW ME THE MONEY!

May 15, 2007 12:34 PM

Add a comment

To post a comment you can sign in using a Point2 ID. Sign in.
Don't have a Point2 ID? Join Point2 NLS or post as a guest.

My Blog

Mike Farmer
Mike Farmer Realty

Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

recent comments
"warner robbins ga"
Mike Farmer
"information information inf..."
Mike Farmer
"how much would you pay to g..."
Mike Farmer
"something to offset the doom"
Mike Farmer
"passed the brokers test now..."
Mike Farmer
"passed the brokers test now..."
Mike Farmer
"mike farmer joins the blood..."
Mike Farmer
"am i crazy"
Mike Farmer
"mike farmer joins the blood..."
Mike Farmer