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I was just thinking...

Zillow -- Microcosm of A Bigger Problem

By: Mike Farmer
Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:06 PM

Below is an example of a comment becoming all too common on Zillow.

“Actually the real investors in Re are hurting big time due to lack of capital and dropping rents! 

These clowns are just realtors, drop outs from College and their frat houses!

They cant find cash flow possitve property, funding or tenants!!!!

Realtors are such liars ......What a waste of human flesh!”

Where will Zillow get its income going forward? From real estate professionals. But that’s Zillow’s problem. If they want participation from losers like this at the expense of paying customers, who am I to argue that it’s suicide? 

What bothers me is the motivation behind comments like this. Zillow, though, is a microcosm of what is terribly wrong with the ongoing debate regarding the real estate “crisis”, and as I stated in an earlier blog, what is wrong with debating in society in general.

What I am reading over and over on these sites is a desperate insistence on ruin and devastation in real estate. Even the most innocently positive remark gets attacked by the Wolves of Negativity. They hide this insistence on negativity behind the virtuous stance that they are merely purveyors of the nitty-gritty reality of what’s happening now. They claim a moral superiority over the brainless “cheerleaders” of real estate who have a vested interest – those greedy RE agents who will get a COMMISSION!

I don’t believe in their sanctified objectivity for a nano-second. There are several explanations that seem plausible to me, but virtuous truth-telling is not one of them. If the Wolves of Negativity only made claims regarding California (which is where most on these sites are from) I could see their point – a real estate cheerleader in California is like Custer yelling “Take no prisoners alive!” And, I am on the side of anyone whose sentiments expose the over priced market in California that excludes the average homebuyer; however, these humbuggers insist the whole country is in dire straits and refuse to acknowledge even pockets of happy-time without a zillion buts, yets and just-wait-tils.

One explanation is that the “nattering nabobs of negativity” (quoted from Spiro Agnew – does anyone remember him?) suffer from delusions of grandeur and think their small, shrill voices will actually drive prices down so they can pick up a bargain. But this doesn’t explain why they insist on devastation nationwide, unless they are national investors. Another explanation is that misery loves company and they are lonely. The third explanation is political.

I believe the political explanation makes the most sense. There seems to be a concerted effort with election year coming up to portray the US as a failing country on the verge of collapse. Real estate was in the limelight of a strong economy for years and those who hate the Republican administration have bitterly waited for a sign of weakness and now that Florida and the west are showing signs of weakness, they are using this opportunity to bolster the Democrats as the saviors. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a grumpy Republican hammering on Democrat hyperbole and gamesmanship. I was a Democrat in my early years, a Republican after I turned forty, and now I have turned away from both parties in favor of objectivity and free thinking.

I hate to see politics coloring our debate on real estate, but this is exactly what I have witnessed at places like Zillow and in most media coverage. And I hate to see a place like Zillow, who has the opportunity to create a social network of buyers, sellers and professionals where true learning can take place, become infected with political zombies who spew hate, anger and class-envy. One thing I really hate is the mindless and trite denigration of all real estate agents. I know what it takes to succeed in this industry, and I know how my colleagues work to maintain ethics and integrity in this chaotic and rapidly changing field. To Zillow I say – squash this infection before it turns your site into a handful of cynical political goons patting their own butts and mumbling obscenities to passersby. To you all, I say, keep up the good work and Merry Christmas! To the media, I say – go get a real job.

Mike from Savannah

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Comments


Guest

2008 Presidential Election » Zillow — Microcosm of A Bigger Problem said:

December 19, 2007 1:34 PM
Cindy Hartman
Member Since '05

Cindy Hartman said:

THERE it is..."That's what I'm saying!" :)

Hope you have a wonderful holiday Mike!

Cindy

 (your future campaign manager)

December 19, 2007 1:42 PM
Gary Morris
Member Since '07

Gary Morris said:

Mike, well put, very good article. I totally agree with your insight.

Merry Christmas to you.

December 19, 2007 2:18 PM
John Rainville
Member Since '06

John Rainville said:

Mike:

Like a  laser beam---right on target.

December 19, 2007 4:44 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '06

Vance Remele said:

Below is an example of a comment becoming all too common  period!

Watch the video, Realtors get a send off, but in the wrong direction

And this on national news.

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/video/embed.asp?id=995

Vance

December 19, 2007 5:09 PM
Bill Thompson, REALTOR®
Member Since '07

Bill Thompson, REALTOR® said:

I saw some interesting statistics recently. There are more than 2 actively licensed agents for every house listed on the MLS in our area. Now, also consider that about half of these MLS listings are cancelled or expire without a sale taking place. That makes the number of agents compared to actual closings greater the 4 to 1. Now we all know some agents have numerous listings and closings. Where does that leave the rest of these actively licensed agents?

Read Mike's statement: "I know what it takes to succeed in this industry" in light of these stats.

I have said it before but I think the misguided marketing efforts of agents in the past claiming to be "Multimillion Dollar Producers", wearing lots of jewelry, driving expensive cars, etc. have made the public think agents make an unfair profit off their hard earned equity.

Someone should explain the math. An agent that sells $2 million in real estate only gets between $30,000-60,000 in commissions and this is before all other expenses. Expenses can total about 50% so this "multimillion dollar producer" is making a taxable income of $15,000-$30,000. Nothing to brag about.

If RE agents had developed a reputation for being hard working, humble, intelligent and nonflashy professionals, people might not mind seeing that agent make a commission.

Doctors used to be more humble and live more simple lives but as many have become money hungry, and flashed their wealth around the public and media have become more hostile to their pay level as well. It is not a good idea to flaunt your wealth or fake wealth (as many agents do) in front of the public. It makes them hate you.

December 19, 2007 6:07 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Right on Bill! We met the enemy and he is 'multimil producer' us.

Happy Birthday Vance Gumba! Yesterday . . .  :)

December 19, 2007 6:28 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Can I email this link to David Gibbons at Zillow? Would love to hear his take...

December 19, 2007 6:37 PM
Trista Anderson
Member Since '04

Trista Anderson said:

I agree with Mike and will campaign for him here in Canada - possibly he can fix the problem down there before it hits too hard up here..

Bill - I completely agree with you also BUT was taught the whole 'fake it till you make it' thing years ago and most Realtors, that I know anyway, always need to be seen as successful in order to generate the business it takes to actually be successful.  A double edged sword.

I do agree as a group we tend to be overly boisterous and flashy.  Possibly if we turn the conversations to how hard we actualy do work, the emotional rollercoaster of daily selling and the high price of therapy ; ) we may get a little more sympathy fro the general public.

As for Zillow - they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot.  People can only take so much negativity before they collectively find a positive resolution.  Look at the wide acceptance of 'The Secret', with little to no proof - I am not saying it does not work BUT do you think it would have been as widely accepted in the high living 80's? Just as eventually (lets give Bill some time to get rid of the overflow of agents in his market...just not BILL!!) our attitudes and those of the general population will change to more positive thinking.  And we will not be sooo flashy...

Or not.  Who knows.  But something has to change.

Heres to the Realtors New Years Prayer...

'Dear Lord, Please just give me one more good year and I promise not to pi## it all away'

HaHa!! C'mon - you know you say it!! LOl!

December 19, 2007 6:43 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Thanks everyone. Yes, Jay, you can email it to David. I wold love to hear his take, too.

December 19, 2007 6:57 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

It must be the difference in regions, but here everybody wears jeans.

I think, though, the caricature of realtors is flashy clothes and big cars.

I wonder how true that is on average, or whether it's a media image creation.

December 19, 2007 7:03 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '06

Vance Remele said:

Right on Bill! We met the enemy and he is 'multimil producer' us.

Happy Birthday Vance Gumba! Yesterday . . .  

Candice piasno Claus thank you but how did you know it was my b day

December 19, 2007 7:09 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

You told me. And I have a very good memory.  :)

December 19, 2007 7:47 PM
Cathy  Clark
Member Since '06

Cathy Clark said:

Mike for POTUS.

December 19, 2007 8:21 PM
Chantal Gakwaya
Member Since '06

Chantal Gakwaya said:

Great thread Mike. Yes, I think Zillow will shoot themselves in the foot by allowing this type of behaviour to carry on. I wouldn't want to spend money on their site to advertise. People are being belittled and humiliated on a daily basis on that site and I don't see how this can help their image or revenue dollars in the long run. I don't see how they are going to make it without the support of agents advertising on their site.

December 19, 2007 9:12 PM
Shelly  Constantz
Member Since '07

Shelly Constantz said:

Mike, thanks for putting into words what many of us have been thinking but unable to express so eloquently.  I was just talking to another agent in my office about not having zillow as part of his marketing mix (I have decided to quit using them).  They started with the belief that they would put Realtors out of business with their zestimates, and then decided to "embrace" us so we would give them information for their database.. and then encourage others to bash us.  Nope.  Not gonna play with them.  

I know your message was much larger than just a zillow discussion, but they certainly epitomize the worst.

shelly

December 20, 2007 7:35 AM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, I don’t know how you are able to take anything from Zillow and turn it into a political message of the usual Republican versus Democratic parties’ mud slinging campaigns.

Zillow is what it is – a hate forum against real estate agents. If you post anything there you will get the standard line from them accusing you of trolling for business. And, there are active agents, hiding behind the autonomous postings there that seem to be the very reason we have such a great reputation with the general public (thanks in part to the NAR for the good use of our image building funds they steal from us). I don’t waste my time there at that site.

I say let Ohio and others do an investigation to the mortgage problems. All my deals were 100% legitimate. I did not partake in fraud. The video that Vance posted says it all. The Attorney General Marc Dann said in his own words, it was “insatiable demand”. That translates to the words of Allan Greenspan, “irrational exuberance”.  But, Marc Dann is a politician and will place blame over responsibility to get votes. So, in the words of Billy Joel, I am an innocent man.

Is our country in trouble? In my opinion, YES! Can the Democratic Party fix what George Bush and company broke? Maybe, but we can never go back to 1970. And, who would want to?

I know you don't want to hear what I say

I know you're gonna keep turning away

But I've been there and if I can survive

I can keep you alive

I'm not above going through it again

I've not above being cool for a while

If you're cruel to me I'll understand

Some people run from a possible fight

Some people figure they can never win

And although this is a fight I can lose

The accused is an innocent man

I am an innocent man

Oh yes I am

An innocent man

You know you only hurt yourself out of spite

I guess you'd rather be a martyr tonight

That's your decision

But I'm not below

Anybody I know

If there's a chance of resurrecting a love

I'm not above going back to the start

To find out where the heartache began

Some people hope for a miracle cure

Some people just accept the world as it is

But I'm not willing to lay down and die

Because I am an innocent man

I am an innocent man

Oh yes I am

An innocent man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdKen3vO-sY

December 20, 2007 9:55 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Gregory, have you been drinking that Ohio shine again?

"Mike, I don’t know how you are able to take anything from Zillow and turn it into a political message of the usual Republican versus Democratic parties’ mud slinging campaigns."

I do it with mirrors.

December 20, 2007 10:36 AM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, that is too funny. Did you post the opposite on Zillow?

December 20, 2007 10:56 AM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Mike well put. I agree that the evils of a presidential race have influenced and spilled over into what should be objective reasoning. However, in recent years we have witnessed a division of the populace spurred by the media and sanctioned by both parties. Albeit Global Warming, the Real Estate Market, Immigration, Health Care, Job Creation or any of the other whipping boys of debate and there stands the divide that fuels the political objective of divide and conquer.

Unification, compromise and understanding for some reason have left the arena of sensibility when it comes to winning the Whitehouse or for that matter any current arguments or cause. The price we pay for this is the loss of a unified nation and the ability to stand as one.

The Guru’s that run elections have found that negative is more listened to than any positive message because it is accompanied by the “fear factor”.  That has always been true of the News Media and it appears some others have taken note and agree with this philosophy, notably Zillow.

I disagree with Greg on his take and think this is more an age thing than a conservative v/s liberal mentality. You see the older generation never had this problem and learned how to compromise. They took pride in appearance, responsibility in parenting, dedication in their work, pride in their patriotism and many more things that seem to have been replaced with a different mindset.  Today the rules seemed to have changed for the worse. It is now better to spread negative than encourage the truth. There are no markets that I can think of that can be painted with a broad brush and have generalized statements made that had any credibility.

The real truth Mike is I would like to go back to the past in the sense I would love it if more of the current generations would adopt the thinking of the “Great Generation”. I would also hope that they would once again return to a more simple understanding and realize that the golden rule was not something found on a measuring device. That disagreement was a basis for understanding and compromise. That government was not set up to be the giver of freedom and all things needed but just the protector of our liberties. That you must save and not spend more than you can afford. In a nut shell, we need more people to take responsibility for their actions and their lives. That includes the people at Zillow, NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CNN  and all the rest that help spread the mistruths for their own personal gain.

I am a senior citizen and therefore if you disagree with my comments, who cares. I’ll forget I made them by tomorrow anyway! IMHO

December 20, 2007 5:13 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Gary, ..................Oh never mind. Whatever I was going to say is not important. It may not even be relevant to the discussion at hand.

Merry Christmas.

December 20, 2007 5:58 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Greg Merry Christmas to you and your family and I hope you have a great New Year.

December 20, 2007 6:10 PM
Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI
Member Since '04

Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI said:

Mike, I hate to say it, but zillow and sites like it are attracting the new generations of home buyers.  Most are the young internet buyers, they are posting their thoughts and will be blunt.  Remember, some are bored and will get on any blog and start spouting off over whatever the topic is.  If zillow edits, these folks will catch on and see it as not "real" for them.  Your craigslist prospects are many of the same people.

When we do get the opportunity to meet them in person and they are standing in front of us to buy or sell a home, we really have to prove ourselves as professionals and demonstrate to them that we have value.  This stereotype about agents is carried over in TV shows and in movies over and over again. Even some people in your own families and friends that you have helped probably won't tell you to your face their "impression" of the industry. A few bad apples folks. . . .just know it happens and move on.  

But zillow is here to stay whether we like it or not - but it's not a replacement for great service and real market knowledge.  It can actually be a good place for you to make connection to people who could really use your help.  Make lemonade. . . .

Happy holidays all.  

December 20, 2007 9:11 PM
Mipeco Realty, Inc -  Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner
Member Since '03

Mipeco Realty, Inc - Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner said:

I did try posting on Zillow a few times but realized pretty quick it wasn't worth my time!

December 20, 2007 11:10 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Vicki, I deal with young homebuyers all the time. Most of the regular posters on Zillow who are the most offensive call themselves seasoned in real estate.

Zillow seems to have attracted a loud group of cynics from the west who think the rest of the country is ignorant and backwards.

I'm not proposing that Zillow should censor these people; I'm merely pointing out what I found and I think it's damaging to Zillow. How they handle it is up to them. I think they should go to a blog type site.

There is definitely no certainty that Zillow will survive. And I have to disagree -- I don't think Zillow represents a new generation of homebuyers. So far I haven't seen many homebuyers at all on their forum.

Their Zestimates might attract buyers and sellers looking to gather information, but the site as a whole, right now, is representing an anti-agent minority that makes it unattractive for agents wanting to spend marketing dollars.

Looking at it from a busines venture attempting to attract advertising dollars from agents, this seems odd.

December 21, 2007 7:53 AM
Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI
Member Since '04

Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI said:

Hi Mike,

I am not sure getting our marketing dollars is really zillow's angle. They would be best off, especially with the state of the market and agents cutting back on spending, going for the big bucks with companies like Home Depot, Lowes, Sears, etc. I find that soon to be sellers will email me with questions about tax appraisals vs' market value vs' lenders appraisals and what the market is doing as a result of my listings being there.  And, with some of my listings now on the market for less than the seller paid in 2004 or 2005, some buyers are paying attention and coming on in to my website for a look.  Our profession as a whole is misunderstood by the public as far as how much it takes (skill,time and money) to get the job done.  Zillow could be, especially in a down market, a good tool for us to demonstrate our professionalism and dedication.  

You want to see some real bogus info, check realtytrac which seems to get quoted over and over in news broadcast with statistics, and also is eager to take our marketing dollars.  They report second mortgages as firsts and utilize public records, as does zillow, but in such a way to attract investors, dramatize statistics and encourage first time buyers to believe they really can "steal" a home. And charge people to see it creating a "value".  At least the zillow site seems to be utilizing more accurate information.  Overall, it all seems to be providing the public with misinformation misleading them to believe they are experts - and in some cases influancing them to make bad decisions against the advice of the professionals by going it alone and making some "creative" deals that leave them in a real mess.  

And you know well after being in the biz a long time, some of their skepticism about agents does have to do with unethical behavior on the part of agents, whether intentional or for a lack of experience or training.  This is why our standard contract here is now 9 pages and there has been so much written to protect home buyers.  Yes, there are many great agents and good transacations, but most people do not talk and write about their good experiences - like the news, bad news gets more attention, is more interesting and the Internet has provided an outlet for unhappy consumers to vent.  My point was that in person, we have to overcome that everyday by doing good business and walking the walk.  None of the sites will ever replace a good agent making sure that a transaction comes together smoothly and working ethically.  It's just a shame that now in a market with prices and rates down, that these sites as well as the TV news has buyer's too scared to take advantage of a great time to go forward.  The media certainly has a great power here, huh?

Best wishes to all for beautiful holidays and a great 2008!!

December 22, 2007 8:07 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

[Vicki sez: You want to see some real bogus info, check realtytrac]

Amen to that!

RealtyTrac had one of my listings on it listed as a preforeclosure when we had a recorded satisfaction piece from when the owner paid it off -- AND it was in escrow with a new buyer at the time! LOL!

[The media certainly has a great power here, huh?]

Yes. And now, WE are the media.

What WE say is going to be taken as 'the facts' by someone in the abyss we call the internet.

THIS is the media. Right here, right now. THEY (the 'old media') look to US for 'facts'. That makes me laugh to even consider, but it's true.

I just try to keep it factual and positive and take everything with a nice big rock of salt!  :)

Call me Pollyanna, but one person's perception at a time, the world can change. In fact, it's the only sure bet.

December 22, 2007 8:50 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Perhaps they are not looking for agent dollars. If so, then they don't have much to worry about, except Home Depot refusing to give dollars if the image is not right.

The criticism of agents doesn't bother me, I do my own thing, but, as I said, looking at it from a business perspective, the anti-agent, hateful tone at Zillow can only harm them -- in my little ol' humble opinion.

I like a lot of people at Zillow, and I have continued posting there but the vocal minority is off-putting, and if it gets worse, it might hurt adverising regardless of who they are targeting for dollars.

December 22, 2007 9:33 AM
Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI
Member Since '04

Vicki Owens, ABR, CRS, GRI said:

Please, someone call Mike Wallace from 60 minutes and let Candice, Mike and I go on for an interview about residential real estate :) lol.  Then maybe our "new" media will get the attention that it deserves!!

Smiles to all of you and Merry Christmas!!!  Let's hope Santa leaves some good news for 2008 under our trees and the Grinch crawls back into his hole and it will be good news for all the buyers and sellers in "Whoville".

December 24, 2007 7:43 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Yes, we could tell the nation the true science of real estate.

Merry Christmas!

December 25, 2007 7:38 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

I'm in. :)

December 25, 2007 7:54 PM

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