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I was just thinking...

Zillow is ZZZZZZZ

By: Mike Farmer
Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:19 AM

How many ways are there to say -- real estate agents are ignorant, dishonest and useless? Zillow has found many ways to say this through their discussion board. I hold Zillow accountable for the trash that is on their site. Not once have I seen a moderator intervene on the behalf of agents, so it leads me to believe they share the sentiments. Maybe they will come up with more creative ways to denigrate agents, but after spending a month there it bored me to a coma. I've left and I'm feeling much better, thank you.

Zillow has also, through their discussion board, founds ways to inform the public that housing prices will drop 70%, no one should buy a house for at least the next ten years and that we will all be in soup lines, straggly bum-citizens of a third-world nation, soon to be owned by China.

On top of this, there are a group of conspiracy theorists who insist 9-11 was caused by our government and the buildings went down in a controlled demolition. What does this have to do with real estate? Ask Zillow, they allowed this lunacy to be propagated on their board, yet they remove the most innocuous of threads that might be critical of their forum.

Plus, their Zestimates are all over the place. There is no way they can give accurate estimates of prices without first hand knowledge of the areas.

So far, Zillow seems to be a breeding ground for loonies, and not much more. Why it has been propped up by investor money is beyond me, unless it is the same phenomenon that make a Jerry Springer successful -- except Jerry Springer is actually successful -- Zillow hasn't proven any success.

And to imagine that agents were once worried about places like Zillow making us obsolete. After spending 15 minutes on Zillow, any sane buyer would be searching madly for a professional. Some of the people who screech the loudest inanities on their discussion board remind me of the crazy lady on the Simpsons who throws cats at passersby. My, what an image they are creating.

There is a great opportunity for social networks and vertical search to have a value-added impact on consumers searching for real estate online, but Zillow is missing that opportunity. If you're into something like a death-cage match between Jerry Springer and Geraldo Rivera, or wild guesstimates on your home's value, then Zillow's your place, but if you are looking for estimates of true value based on local knowledge and grownup discussion regarding nationwide trends in real estate, there is no need to bother -- Zillow doesn't have it.

Mike from Savannah

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Comments

Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, that was my experience over there at Zillow, too. But, then I went over to Trulia and found that maybe those nut cases on Zillow are right. Someone asks a question and ten agents jump in to offer their advice on how to put the screws to a home owner. One agent over there has a history of over 1500 responses and then tries to claim she doesn't post there offen - she's new at it. We have met the enemy, Mike. It is us!

January 12, 2008 3:13 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Like Felix The Cat would say . . . Right-ee-oh, yo!  :)

January 12, 2008 3:24 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I'm not into self-loathing, Gregory.

A handful of realtors on a discussion board is not representative of an entire profession.

January 12, 2008 3:42 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

You could say the same thing -- that a handful of loonies id not representative of Zillow, but the difference is that NAR is not supporting those agents by giving them an unchallenged, unmoderated voice on a website.

If Zillow moderators would become active and challenge some of these agent-hating dorks, the public may see Zillow as not supporting their looniness.

If NAR supported dishonest agents, then I'd say you have a point.

January 12, 2008 3:49 PM
Bob Mitchell
Member Since '04

Bob Mitchell said:

Hey Mike,

I haven't really been on there, I need to go see what's being said. Thanks

January 12, 2008 7:06 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Bob, you'll probably find it interesting for awhile, but then it gets old -- cynicism and pounding on the negative wears me down, quickly.

January 12, 2008 8:55 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Hey, Mike. It's not self-loathing to identify a deficiency in yourself or occupation and want to change it. And, I disagree with you about the NAR. They have created the problem. Maybe, at one time, it was a wonderful organization that you remember it to be. It may even profess to uphold the standards which you strongly believe and try to live your life in accordance with. But, the old cliché, “the path to hell is paved with good intentions”, comes to my mind. We both agree that Zillow is a wasted web site full of angry real estate agent haters. Care to talk politics?

January 12, 2008 9:30 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Mike I used to link to Zillow on my web site but after the trash they allow, I deleted the link and I don't even go there to see the garbage they allow. I find it a source for aggravation.

As to NAR, they have proven time and again to be less vigilant than a blind traffic cop.

January 12, 2008 10:35 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I agree that there are a lot of agents who don't meet the code of ethics, but when I stop and think about all the agents I deal with and the ones I know from online, the majority are doing a good job and are honest. Here in Savannah, I can think of a handful who I have had bad experiences with. In the real world all professions have bad apples, and as far as sales and service go, I'd say real estate agents are no worse than other professions -- they certainly don't deserve the blanket criticisms leveled against them as a whole.

Talk politics? Yes, you start. What do you want to talk about?

January 13, 2008 8:53 AM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike - we agree that the majority of real estate agents are good honest hard working people. We agree that Zillow is a wasted forum for agents where, home owners and buyers can exchange ideas - in part because of a few negative posters there on that site who are able to post anonymously.

We seem to disagree on the anonymously posted agent haters right to feel such anger towards us. A few bad apples do spoil the bunch unless someone is picking out the bad and washing off the remaining good ones.

That someone is "brokers" and their safe haven, pay to work UNION called the NAR.

Now about Obama. Did he smirk, when he said, "You're likable enough, Hillary", or, is that right wing Krauthammer just trying to throw some mud?

January 13, 2008 9:23 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Well, first you will have to make a better case against NAR. What, secifically, are they NOT doing to maintain high standards?

I think Obamba was less than serious. I think he was being smug and condescending. Obama will iimplode before the election, I think -- mainly because he is all show and no substance.

January 13, 2008 9:33 AM
John Rainville
Member Since '06

John Rainville said:

IMHO--I think we will see the Zillow and other "trash talkers" fade out as the market stabilizes.  I have to agree with some of what is said about real estate agents---many over the last few boom years have been lazy and inept.  Is that NAR's fault---NO. Nor is it the states, some of the blame has to rest on the Brokers shoulders for not training, maintaining and terminating agents as needed.

I am amazed at how many so called "real estate professionals" really have no idea of the profession or the inner workings of the transaction---let alone common sense.  To prove my point, how many MLS sheets have you seen over the last two years that were incomplete, or just plain WRONG?  Directions that lead you to the 7-11 and not the house, a house photo with snow on the roof in August.  I see time and time again where agents are too lazy to get the room dimensions, real taxes, and post decent photos.

My hope is that these are the agents that get out of our pool and let the professionals remove some of the tarnish they have applied to our luster.  As always IMHO.

January 13, 2008 2:48 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

John,

I agree that the influx of agents who are lost and unattended to in big offices has led to incompetence. I am in favor of a some kind of mandatory apprenticeship, like appraisers go through, before agents are allowed to work on their on.

January 13, 2008 2:58 PM
Karen Weger
Member Since '05

Karen Weger said:

Yes! And also Zillows so called comparables are crazy. Especially in my area.

They give a comp no where near the other.

And nothing like inexperienced negative agents running amuck.

Sites like these are dangerous to the average consumer.

January 13, 2008 6:33 PM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

Hey, it's Drew from Zillow.

Mike - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. In zillow discussions, we try to avoid moderating opinions. If conversations start to get personal and about people rather than issues, then we do intervene to get things back on track. There are a fair number of consumers talking among each other about real estate on Zillow -- I think you're missing the opportunity to contribute to that conversation and help solidify the value add that real estate professionals bring to the table. Yes, you are certainly entitled to ignore the conversations that are taking place online, but they are not going to go away. If we kicked off the housing market doomers, they would just go congregate somewhere else. Please "flag" any content on zillow that you feel we should review and our staff will investigate.

Regarding accuracy, you can find zillow's accuracy in GA on a county by county basis here - http://www.zillow.com/howto/DataCoverageZestimateAccuracyGA.htm

January 13, 2008 8:22 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I have a feeling you would moderate heavily if a group of agents began, on almost a daily basis, calling participants stupid, useless, bloodsuckers sitting around like vultures wating for prices to drop.

I'm not saying anyone should be kicked off, but what is moderation if not to moderate. I think it would be a good idea, every once in a while, to intervene and assure agents that Zillow doesn't have the same low opinion of agents as some of its loudest, most vile participants do.

I suspect you have no idea how many people are not participating due to the constant doom and gloom and agent bashing.

BTW, I have been participating for a couple of months. As it is right now, I'm not missing much by quitting.

January 13, 2008 9:20 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Drew, did you even look at the page you linked to that shows "Zillow's accuracy" in Ga?

January 14, 2008 6:36 AM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

Yes, I did - why?

January 14, 2008 7:14 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Because it only shows information on two counties -- Bartow and Barrow.

January 14, 2008 9:53 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

One of the main problems I have is with the comparables. I have checked these before and found them way off base, but I checked again this morning for a house on Congress Street. The comparables it shows are all over the place, and the subject property, 837 congress, is a shell -- it has been gutted -- but nowhere is that documented -- one comparable was a townhouse, another 8 miles away in a district going downhill, another was a home in midtown that can no way be considered comparable, so on and so forth. The square footage of the comparables went from a little over a 1000 sq ft to 2400 sq ft.

January 14, 2008 10:01 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

That's a key problem with not only Zillow and its similars, but any time the public perceives the internet in itself to be a real estate expert.

No magical formula can 'see' a property, nor know the 'personality' of a neighborhood.

It can't tell you that the developer is bust, or that the marina won't be completed, or someone's in receivership, or that half the street has gone to auction.

Appraisers get this. And guess who the appraisers call before they turn in their reports?

Brokers.

January 14, 2008 10:49 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Yes, Candice, that's why I believe online companies like Zillow need to be straight-up with consumers regarding their inability to know local areas -- and they need to support professionals, not remain silent while we are pilloried like common theives.

January 14, 2008 1:29 PM
Gary Szolosi
Member Since '03

Gary Szolosi said:

Drew I have dropped Zillow from my web because you were so far off mark with your property values I found it a disservice rather than a help to clients.

January 14, 2008 2:14 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Perhaps Zillow has revenue generating plans in place that I am unaware of, and maybe advertising honchos like Home Depot and such will be a good source of revenue, but what I see as a huge potential revenue generator and quality improvement action is partnerships with local real estate professionals to help with accuracy, in return getting good advertisement locally for agents.

The potential for a do-it-all site in real estate is there, but I think it will have to full-throatedly support agents in the evolution, and come up with creative, win-win arrangements between agents and Zillow and consumers.

January 14, 2008 2:30 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I think it is premature and risky to bet too much on 20-something do-it-yourselfers who don't have the money to be significant in the over-all real estate picture -- and as they mature their ideas regarding professional services will change. I would want a site that is fairly hip, but mature enough to attract serious adults who want to better manage their time and resources.

January 14, 2008 2:35 PM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

Mike-

Feedback we receive from people that use zillow drives much of our product prioritization. If you have ideas as to how we can create a win-win with agents and improve zestimate accuracy in the process, I'm all ears (you can e-mail me at drewm at z dot com).

The media model of selling advertising is working and we're committed to it for the long haul - http://www.zillowblog.com/really-we-are-a-media-co-really/2007/03/.

Regarding the mention that only 2 counties show up, what browser are you using? I see every county listed on that page.

January 14, 2008 4:16 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Hmmm, I'm using Internet Explorer, but why would only two counties show up?

Oh my God, I have ideas. I will put them all down and send them by email.

January 14, 2008 4:50 PM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

Which version of IE? I'm using ie 7.0 and it's working.

You can download the spreadsheet here - http://www.zillow.com/static/xls/Zestimate_Accuracy_Sep_30_2007.xls

January 14, 2008 6:21 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, the very fact that there is a cesspool of Zillow bloggers should tell you that the NAR has not done its’ job. What is their job? It’s not the National Association of Home Sellers, or, Buyers. It an association of Brokers like yourself. You make you’re agents join the local board of realtors to be a member to get access to the MLS. They really don’t care about the agents or what character they lack, unless it violates some advertising rule that is very protective of the general public. Like with issues concerning the proper display of my name rider.

The agent name rider must have the full legal name on it. Because the general public is too stupid to figure out that Greg and Gregory are the same person, or the telephone number in the advertisement I pay for must also have the broker’s office number as large as my own direct line. And, don’t forget the font size on my business card – don’t dare let that be larger than the brokers. However, every time you turn around you are being told to promo yourself (not the broker). These are the concerns of the NAR and brokers. Not the “handful” of bad agents that has infected the business.

The handful of bad agents you mentioned is an exponential factor to the real number that is in the business. Just take the size of your geographic area where you sell real estate and then multiply that by the size of the United States. Now we are talking about a real scum ring that has been allowed to tarnish the surface and edges the general public sees every day. That is why you get that warm fuzzy feeling of love whenever you talk to a FisBo.

Mike, I am not going to change your mind about the NAR any more than I am going to change you from republican to democrat or democrat to republican. I see a problem and you see an opportunity. I see solutions while you see something that already works; and you don’t mess with things that work. I understand that and can live with it. But, you are the one that brought up that group of festering sores. I just think we need to recognize that those sores got that way from some very bad experience they suffered from one of my esteemed colleagues.

Why a broker teaches agents to conduct themselves in that fashion if a topic for a new thread. What do you think of Ron Paul? And is John McCann able to overcome his Viet Nam war experience to be the next Commander in Chief?

January 14, 2008 7:29 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I hate to admit this, but I don't know how to find out what edition I have.

Okay, Gregory, we'll agree to agree on some things and not others. I'm down with that.

January 14, 2008 7:42 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I don't know enough about Ron Paul. I think McCain will be the Republican contender.

January 14, 2008 7:44 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Just go to the web browser menu -file-edit-view-favorites-tools-help.

Pick help and then choose "about internet explorer"

January 14, 2008 7:47 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Thanks,

I am using ie 7

January 14, 2008 7:59 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I tried the link again and it only showed numbers all the way across for Bartow and Barrow.

January 14, 2008 8:09 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Come on Mike! Let's think out of the box. Dennis Kucinich would be great. Just with Elizabeth at his side, the right wing blame it all on Clinton gang, would never need to worry about a lewinski scandal. Everyone would be happy. No first woman president, no first black president, no first morman, no more born again, no more born too late, this guy could solve our nations great divide. It was always about the hummer. I think he is better choice than Giuliani and Elizabeth is much prettier than Judith. That's all the reason I need.

January 14, 2008 9:52 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

"The handful of bad agents you mentioned is an exponential factor to the real number that is in the business. Just take the size of your geographic area where you sell real estate and then multiply that by the size of the United States. Now we are talking about a real scum ring that has been allowed to tarnish the surface and edges the general public sees every day. That is why you get that warm fuzzy feeling of love whenever you talk to a FisBo."

I didn't have time to deal with this yesterday but I have to respond.

Gregory, I hear what you are saying, but what we are tsalking about is people. Pick any line of work -- plumbers, insurance sales, hairdressers, government employees, lawyers, programmers, executives, waitpersons, retail managers, doctors, etc, and you will find good and bad. Especially anything related to the service industry where you have to work with people. You run across people all the time inall lines of work who are either dishonest or incompetent. I don't think real estate is a special case -- it's people who are different levels of competency and honesty.

January 15, 2008 6:19 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Kucinich? If I was a liberal (in the new sense of the word) democrat, I would probably vote for Kucinich.

January 15, 2008 6:21 AM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Mike, I was concerned about you. With the three L post and not responding to my bad real estate agent remarks I was beginning to think you had fallen into some sort of depression. Anyway, I'm glad my Kucinich post has you back to your old self.

But, two things. First of all no other profession you mentioned has the public perception that real estate agents have with the general public. Why?

And, second, if you are going to use that analogy, you can't slam all domocrats with "the new sense of the word" liberal. Budget was in balance when Bush took over. We ain't all BAD!

January 15, 2008 7:59 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I wasn't denigrating liberal as it is understood now, I'm merely referencing its original meaning -- free enterprise, small government, personal responsibility, laissez-faire.

I am a liberal in the original sense of the word, not the modern sense.

But that doesn't mean modern liberals are bad people, they are just wrong :)

January 15, 2008 9:54 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

You guys are going to have to quit being sensitive to the "liberal" label-- people are going to think you don't believe in liberal policies.

You're not a closet free-marketer, are you?

January 15, 2008 9:56 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I would say that plumbers have been critized for overcharging, lawyers for being mountebanks, physicians for being quacks, government employess for being apatheitc and unresponsive, retail people for being rude and unhelpful, so on and so forth.

But that is my point -- why make a bigger issue of incompetence in real estate when all lines of work have employ incompetent people. It seems an unfair focus has been placed on real estate and car salespeople.

Some computer geeks who make their living working on computers or programming are dishonest or incompetent, it's just that we can't tell.

January 15, 2008 10:02 AM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

O.K., but I think you chased Drew away!

January 15, 2008 10:36 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Drew's waiting on my business ideas. Believe it or not, I am working on something to present to him.

January 15, 2008 11:25 AM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Oh, yes, and to be fair, I met some great people at Zillow. It was just that "handful" that we were talking about earlier that were unbearable.

I think Zillow has started something that can be very powerful, but I think a couple of mental models have to be changed in order for them to fulfill their potential. Ha! How is that for arrogance and presumptiousness (is that a word?).

January 15, 2008 11:29 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Yes presumptuousness is a word.

January 15, 2008 12:15 PM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

Gregory-

Mike didn't chase me away yet :)

January 15, 2008 12:55 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

I would never try to run you away, Drew. Like I said, I like the idea of Zillow, and some the participants in the discussions are smart, good people -- I just think it needs a little moderator influence, not heavy-handedness or censorship, but a moderating voice and balance.

January 15, 2008 1:09 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Drew, don't take offense to this, but I couldn't help notice that your font looks like that of Anonymous on Suzanne's thread. Now that I'm thinking about it - it kind of looks like the same font Aldreth and Klarek use over at Zillow. What's up with that?

January 15, 2008 3:08 PM

Guest

Drew Meyers from Zillow said:

None taken -- it's because I don't have an account on point2 (I've already got too many accounts as it is).

January 15, 2008 3:12 PM
Gregory Bain
Member Since '03

Gregory Bain said:

Candice, I got big words too. I just can't spell them or use them correctly in a sentence. That's why I think out of the box. They won't let me in.

January 15, 2008 3:19 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

[Greg sez: That's why I think out of the box. They won't let me in.]

I LOVE THAT!

January 15, 2008 4:07 PM
Mike Farmer
Member Since '03

Mike Farmer said:

Klarek is alright, just young and cynical -- it's people like Aldreth, though, that ruin the discussion. If I was moderator, I'd chop him off at the knees. Bette, too.

January 15, 2008 5:03 PM
Team DiMuria
Member Since '04

Team DiMuria said:

In the Houston market (mostly because the HAR is so strong at not giving out info) Zillow is worthless. The values are so far off they make  me laugh.

February 15, 2008 1:44 PM

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