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Ramblings, ravings and rantings on the Real Estate world

The Sacrosanct 6% Commission -- How about 12%?!

By: Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS®
Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:23 AM

I recently posted this on my blog, and it's generated some great discussion. I'd love to hear what the RELib community thinks about it... are increased buyer agent co-brokes and incentives an effective way to sell a home?
-------------------------------
From the somewhat infamous 60 Minutes / Redfin infomercial came these words:

For realtors, the six percent commission is sacrosanct. It's remained in place, even as the price of homes has quadrupled over the past 25 years.

Yeah, whatever. Commissions are not "sacrosanct" nor are they set at some mythical level. Commissions are negotiable. Period, end of story.

Yesterday I received an email from a local Phoenix real estate agent. It was one of countless streams of marketing blather I receive on a daily basis from my fellow agents. The title of this one caught my attention. It read:

12% Co-broke for the next 12 days

Interesting…   for those not aware, or for agents from different parts of the country that may call it something else, a "co-broke" is the portion of the total commission offered to the buyer's agent (technically the broker for the buyer's agent). Many, including 60 Minutes own Lesley Stahl, seem to think the "sacrosanct" commission is 6%. What these folks always seem to fail to realize/accept is the commission is split between the listing agent and the buyer's agent. So with a 6% commission, usually 3% goes the listing agent and 3% goes to the buyer's agent. (Like the total commission, the "commission split" is also NOT sacrosanct. Typically it's split 50/50, but certainly not always.)

So here is a seller who, presumably under the advice of his agent, has increased the commission to the buyer's agent to 12% — for a limited time. If there isn't an accepted offer in escrow by August 31, the co-broke reverts to 4%.

Increasing the co-broke to attract buyer agents isn't anything new or innovative. It's been done since time immemorial. Phoenix area builders have been doing exactly this for quite some time as they struggle to bleed off excess spec home inventory. (Interestingly, many of these are the same builders who cut co-brokes to zero during the boom of two years ago. But that's another story.)

This is the most extreme example I've seen on a residential resale. Increasing the co-broke on this home from 4 to 12% would amount to an increase in the buyers agent commission from $17,996 to $52,998 (assuming a full price offer of $449,900).

Fifty three grand for selling a $450K house is ridiculous. To be blunt, I'd be embarrassed to take that much — and I'd feel like I was ripping my buyers off. In my opinion, the sellers would be much better off reducing the price by that extra $36,000. A brief look shows the house currently priced near the mid-range of comparables. A 36K reduction could place it very well – and provide BUYERS with an incentive to view the home and make offers, as well as provide the SELLERS with a more competitive listing, possibly even inducing a multiple offer situation (which does still happen).

To hell with incentivising the AGENT.

We should be keeping our clients best interests in mind. In an agency relationship, we have a fiduciary duty to our clients. How does accepting a commission check of 12% of the offer price even remotely resemble proper service to the client??

I suspect some slime-ball agent is out there right now, salivating over a 53 grand commission check. It will be interesting to see if this listing agent's tactic results in an accepted offer. I'll be watching and reporting….

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Comments

Mary DeWitt
Member Since '05

Mary DeWitt said:

Because of Agency I don't believe in Agent incentives.

I do believe in buyer incentives!  Offer a bounus to help pay for closing cost, new carpet or what ever.  Lowering the price is good too.  Any agent who sees a buyer incentive can also lower the price and tell seller to keep the bonus.  It opens the door to negotiation which is key.

August 29, 2007 10:51 AM
Joe Leksich
Member Since '06

Joe Leksich said:

Greed will sell that house.  

I agree that the buyers agent would NOT have his clients best interest at hand when accepting 12% commission.  They would be much better off to use that to negotiate a better price on the home.

I always have a since of pride when I sell a client a home and it appraises for more than they paid.  I feel like I did something right!!

August 29, 2007 10:52 AM
Howard Arnoff
Member Since '03

Howard Arnoff said:

Jay should be congratulated for winning the Odysseus medal at the Bloodhound Blog for this post.

I'll be lazy because I commented on Jay's Phoenix Real Estate Guy blog so I went over there and copied and pasted my earlier comment.

Jay, great point. We have a small subsection (new construction) in a country club community that has remained mostly unsold for a couple of years while most everything else in the community has sold. I had a client who was going to be looking in the neighborhood and I was stunned when I saw a 12% co-broke offered when I pulled the neighborhood up in the MLS. I still didn’t want to show those homes because I knew why they weren’t selling.

Wouldn’t you guess, while driving around, my buyer said, what’s that indicating these 20 homes and wanted to see them. I brought them in, they didn’t like them either after they saw the interior which was the problem in the first place, bad floor plans and uneven upgrades, some too high end and some too low end all mixed together in one bad looking package.

Here’s the kicker and the point I want to make. The 12% was only going to be offered on a full price offer. So as you and Jonathan said, how many agents are going to sacrifice their clients interests for a big check. Not me but sadly, there will be more than a few.

August 29, 2007 11:33 AM
Corie Seymour
Member Since '06

Corie Seymour said:

Jay... I agree,   But!! I don't like to see that much of a discount. Other home-owners and builders have a stake in property values as well as our buyers.  We have done a couple of things that seem to make sense for everyone.  1. Have seller buy down interest rates in the amount of the discount.  2. Have seller carry back a second at a favorable interest rate (say 5%). Could save additional PMI.  Check w/ lender first  and maybe change lenders.  3. A combination of the 2 and any other deals that will put the money in the hands of the buyer, yet not adversely effect the property.

My Broker would NEVER let me take that commission unless we were sitting a project with huge marketing costs.

August 29, 2007 11:36 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

We've done it before, crank up the CB and give it a shelf life. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Motivates the agents, though! :)

August 29, 2007 11:49 AM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Thanks for the comments folks! *Great* suggestions Corie!!

Candice - it may motivate the agents, but SHOULD it?  Should we not be showing the homes that fit our clients needs, not the homes that fit our wallet?

August 29, 2007 12:07 PM
Mary Welch
Member Since '04

Mary Welch said:

Sellers can do it however they wish, but as sellers agent I think I could have been more creative with the choices than to up the commish. Why try to appeal to the agents, they aren't buying. Do something for the buyer. Agents might just get a reputation of being greedy.

August 29, 2007 12:53 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Of COURSE not, Jay! And Howard made another good point. If they're pumping it up that much, what's the problem and can it be better solved.

But it remains that not all agents are created equal. And it does motivate many of them. If the greedy ones have buyers, I want those buyers cutting a trail over to my seller's property.

August 29, 2007 1:02 PM
Howard Arnoff
Member Since '03

Howard Arnoff said:

Candice, the builder couldn't sell these during the hot market and desperation causes people to take whatever steps are necessary. A homeowner with a house that doesn't sell can do one of two things, lower the price or fix the problem that makes the home unappealing. The builder doesn't want to throw any more money at the problem (and I wouldn't doubt they raised the listing price to cover the oversized commission being offered).

August 29, 2007 1:18 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

We've done it with raw land that has been at a standstill lately . . .

August 29, 2007 1:25 PM
Randy Bollig
Member Since '07

Randy Bollig said:

I have never found Realtor bonus programs effective. It is actually counter productive. Most experienced Realtors do not want bonuses or extra commission. It just gets in the way of meaningful negotiating and cheapens the image of us all. My policy is to give all incentives to the buyer. They are paying it anyway! Todays Buyers are more sophisticated, and recognize the cost. Suggesting a bonus to a Seller is not a good idea. When you suggest to a Seller to add a "bounty" on the sale of his home, what you are really saying is "Realtors will forget about the interests of their client to get a higher commission". How is that a good idea? Provide good service, protect your client, and you will get paid a fair amount. If not, you were able to be charitable.

Randy Bollig

randymybroker.com

August 29, 2007 1:27 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Jay said

''I recently posted this on my blog, and it's generated some great discussion. I'd love to hear what the RELib community thinks about it... are increased buyer agent co-brokes and incentives an effective way to sell a home?''

Well Yes it does...as long as you give your 100% (fiduciary duty).

Looking at this from a builder/developer point of view and a Buyers agent point of view that does mostly new properties from single family homes up to a mega property such as this one http://www.thebluerose.com/ in Orlando.

There are always incentives to what is  called power brokers/ agents to pre-sell properties not even built yet such as The Blue Rose you just looked at above.

There are escalating commissions on many of them already.

Some smaller builders/developers may offer smaller buyers agent incentives in single family subdivisions to move there property, there was an agent in Lake Mary FL last summer that also won a brand new Cadillac  that was offered to the agent that sold the most with a certain frame on top of a 4% co-broke

So what would apply in these cases could very well apply to resales and does there is no difference,,, remember the old saying What Ever It Takes!

The home owner wants his or hers sold is the bottom line.

I leave it up to the Buyers to decide what fits there needs ,and as we all know the buyers needs and wants can change in a minute if they see something of interest that was not in their e plan in the first place.

Now to the point of this whole thread.. (The  Agents Wallet)

Now just 1½ years ago homes almost sold themselves, not a problem with the Sacred 6% and co-broke at 3% from either side then.

Times have changed now the seller and sellers need to sell that home, so what to do? I know raise the buyers agent commission to get some action, lets try 8%  so that would look like a 4% seller and 4% buyers agent, ya think? in most cases yes.

Now look at this home for sale for well over a year at 3%  and 3% co broke

"Still sitting there alone with others in the same neighborhood" with no action at all along with the other homes.

So now the listing is expired for the second time along comes this agent and sits down with the owner and tells the owner of his plan to hopefully sell the home.

The new plan is revealed to the home seller and he likes the idea,

that plan now is a 8% listing.... but now the buyers co broke is 5% and the sellers agent is at 3% that home is priced at $389,900 the same price as before.

There is one more thing that agent did ! he put the normal Supra electronic lock box on the home... that agent also put a combination box on the same home.... Hummm

That agent explain to the home owner we needed to let all Realtors and Non-Realtors to have the same opportunity to sell his home, he explained to the home owner who was scratching his head about the combination box that we have now invited all real estate agents to show the home along with non-MLS members its only fair way to try and get this home sold.

The Realtor stated that there are around 1.3 million Realtors and about 1.7 million Real Estate Agents we need all the action your money will buy.

The home owner was in shock, and after about an hour of added conversation he was well educated as to what was going on for the last year or so...

"In an agency relationship, we have a (fiduciary duty) to our clients."

The (fiduciary duty)  

Was applied above in full service and full representation putting the Client first.

The listing agent Wallet came in  at 3%,the  Buyers agent @5%

Incentives do!  work, Greed Does Not!

Vanceduty

August 29, 2007 1:45 PM
Ginny  Lee's Team
Member Since '03

Ginny Lee's Team said:

I  give bonuses all the time! Agents show my listings more because of the bonus....they tell me they do. Most of the time the Realtor gives the bonus to the buyer...and that is what I always do....my buyers love me for it.

I have a listing now that the seller bought because of my $50,000 bonus that his Realtor gave to them...they were so impresssed they would rather list with me....they are giving a $25,000 bonus now

I will  give it to you plus the 25% referral fee  if you

find me a buyer.

http://www.1floridahome.com/Bonita_Springs/Florida/Homes/34134-Bonita_Springs/The_Colony/Agent/Listing_1187459.html

This one has a $30,000 Bonus and if you send me a referral I will give you the $30,000 bonus plus the 25% referral fee.

http://www.1floridahome.com/Naples/Florida/Homes/34119-Naples/Pelican_Bay/Agent/Listing_1055214.html

Doesn't have my picture on it because I gave it to one of my agents to sell.

If have several other listings with bonuses too...it works for me!

August 29, 2007 1:50 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

I'll take this deal Ginny...

http://www.1floridahome.com/Naples/Florida/Homes/34119-Naples/Pelican_Bay/Agent/Listing_1055214.html

Great price!!! it a giveway almost

I can show it in metro Atlanta and the Orlando, Connecticut markets

Are you game...

Vance

August 29, 2007 2:11 PM
Ginny  Lee's Team
Member Since '03

Ginny Lee's Team said:

Thanks Vance!  You can show any of my listings any where, when ever you want and if you find me a buyer I will pay you a 25% referral fee plus any bonus if there is one....even if you buy it for yourself! That is why we are here...too help each other make more sales....you go for it and I will back you up!

August 29, 2007 2:30 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Great Ginny

Now I need to lets say borrow some your photos and description..I will make a full page for them.

If you have more goodies for them e mail away

You go for it and I will back you up! You got !!!!!

I will also call

Otay

August 29, 2007 2:50 PM
Rob Moen
Member Since '07

Rob Moen said:

Jay,

Realtor bonuses along with high co-broke commissions have been a hot topic around the water cooler in my market area.  I have mixed feelings about both.  

The high co-broke commission really gets a lot of attention.  The highest co-broke commission that I have offered was 1 1/2% higher than the average co-broke commission.  It did not work.  As mentioned above, I think that the house is what sells the house, not the agents pay check.  In this tough market I find it hard to believe that an agent would not show or sell a house that has a lower commission.  Most agents in my market are excited just to have a buyer & put a deal together.

The bonus to the Buyer's Agent seems a little more attratcive than a higher co-broke, but most of the Brokers in my market require that to be split along with the commission.  I have noticed Buyer's Agent Bonuses on HUD homes in my market.  I guess even the banks are looking for ways to generate traffic.

As a Buyer's Agent, I would have a hard time accepting a higher than average commission unless my client got a great deal on the property.  Even then, I think that you might have a problem with the appraisal.  Appraisors are tightening up on their appraisals & have mentioned these types of bonuses on the appraisals.  That could cause issues with the value in the house.  

This is a very interesting topic.

Rob

August 29, 2007 2:56 PM

Guest

Anonymous said:

So your claiming you won't take a 12% commission check? I don't buy that for one second.

August 29, 2007 3:00 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

I must admit Mr Anonymous I with ya there.

I have a property that oddly enough will pay up to 12% many I have are at4- 5 and 6 to me now straight up.

Rob the 1.5% higher split you offered is low in today's market but if that works for you go for it...

Being with a big shingle limits one ability to discount and wheel and deal in most cases anyways, someone has to pay for the franchise fees..

Check out this couples home buyer cash rebate form....

But that is changing= http://www.theexperts-realtors.com/

Vance

August 29, 2007 3:12 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

I don't think that an ethical agent who honestly and fully represents their client has a darn thing to feel guilty about drawing a commission, whatever that is.

August 29, 2007 3:17 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

They don't Candice

I sure do not feel guilty at all, so boo hoo, so I am unethical..

Why is it the word ethics always come into play  when ethics has nothing to do with any of this......, no one can know how much you may have worked for commissions or what is offerd to you,,, and for the most part its none of anybody's business in the first place Duh....

Hell I will take a 1% as well as a 25%...I worked for it..

I would like to know how many have sold homes for FREE thats tis the Question.

I will answer first.. I have Not....but almost to help someone out.

Vance Mart:)

August 29, 2007 3:33 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Anonymous wrote: "So your claiming you won't take a 12% commission check? I don't buy that for one second."

In a "normal" residential resale transaction like the one outlined above, no, I won't take a 12% commission. I'm going to return a significant portion of that money to my client -- every single time. You can chose to believe that or not, I don't really care. I'm not "claiming" this, I've put it out in print, for all time, for all to see.

And you know what? I'll bet you that commission check (and more) that that client will use me again and again. It's likely his friends and family will too. Think that would happen if he/she found out I was slicing myself 12% of his pie? With a client like this, and his referrals, I may do what over my career -- 10, 15, 20 transactions? So what's better, ONE transaction at 12% or TWENTY at 3 - 5%?

It's not a matter of guilt. I work very hard for my clients and I think I deserve every nickel I make. I won't take 12% on a deal like this because it doesn't make sense on two fronts: 1) I just don't see any way to justify serving my fudiciary duty to my client if I'm stuffing a 12% check in my wallet, and 2) from a long term business perspective (and I am in this for the long haul) it makes far more sense to take those 10 - 20 deals over several years than the one big one today.

August 29, 2007 3:48 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Ahhhhh . . . .  sigh.

Reminds me of the story of the oil tanker that was on fire, threatening an entire fleet and nearby community.

A specialist in extinguishing fires of this kind was called in. His fee was 100,000.

It took him 20 minutes to get the blaze under control.

The tanker's captain felt that the specialist was overpaid, and told him so: "You really only did 5,000 worth of work!"

The specialist replied. "The 5000 was for putting out the fire."

"The OTHER 95,000 was for the KNOWLEDGE and RESOURCES enabling me to put the fire out quickly before property and lives were at stake."

August 29, 2007 4:01 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Vance asked: "I would like to know how many have sold homes for FREE thats tis the Question."

We once wound up with 0.34% on a short sale listing. That was a ton of work for what amounts to couch change. We've since gotten 3 - 4 other deals from referrals from that seller. I expect more over the life of our careers. There were complicated, extenuating circumstances. I wouldn't be in business very long if I took a 0.34% commission often...

I'm not trying to say we aren't entitled to commissions we earn. Of course we are.  I just can't justify (to myself) how the work involved in a straight residential re-sale on the buyer's side should cost my client $36,000 extra.  And please, don't tell me "the seller is paying that $36K, not your buyer". The buyer IS paying $36K more to cover the cost of an inflated commission. This isn't the difference between 3 and 5%. We're talking a 400% increase over the "typical" co-broke. How can I possibly be fulfilling my fudiciary responsibilites to my client in this case?

August 29, 2007 4:05 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Hey Jay I agree I rebate to to all, buyers and sellers just look at my sites its in black and white there are even forms there for them to fill out..

But keep in mind my sales are for the most part 95% new properties, some  are not even built yet, I  have deals looking out 2 years so far and some pay a big % only because I am playing with bigger players.

On The resale homes they get as much or more of a deal from me and the agents I have as my team ...

"I call it giving something back, the way real estate should be"

So as far as I am concern with my way of doing things is..

You are preaching to the choir.

I with ya on this one, repeat business.

But for those who may take that 12% or what ever is there business!

I could care less.

Same goes with those big bonuses Ginny has offerd who is paying that.

When it comes to someone else money,,, I Don't Go There......

How does it go, in order to have a contract you need.

A meeting of the minds, between two or more adults getting together to negotiate any and all contracts/listings/cost etc.

Sounds like a plan to me :)

Vance

August 29, 2007 4:13 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Nice analogy Candice. I like that one. In the situation with my post, I could say this...

"I took $3000 for the actual work. The other $15,000 was for the KNOWLEDGE and RESOURCES enabling me to help you through a trouble free transaction and to ensure you are legally secure in said transaction".

I just don't see the need to change that "$15,000" to "$50,000". Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm an idiot, but taking a $53K commission check on a $450K house seems excessive. Just my opinion. Others mileage will vary.

August 29, 2007 4:13 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Representation     -----     Compensation

Apple     ----------     Orange

Venus       ------    Mars

August 29, 2007 4:14 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Ah Jay, you're an idealist. Do not change.

You will get all my referrals no matter what you charge.  :)

August 29, 2007 4:16 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

In fact, Jay I would pay extra on referrals to secure your services.

August 29, 2007 4:16 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Candice darling, you are way more cerebral than I.  :)

Apples and oranges are both fruits -- hence "related"

Venus and Mars are both planets (and/or some sort of Greek/Roman mythology characters)-- hence "related"

So you're saying representation and compensation are related?  I agree!

Or are you saying you can't compare representation to compensation? As in "comparing apple to oranges"?

Sorry, I'm confused.  A quasi-normal state lately...

August 29, 2007 4:21 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Candice wrote: "Ah Jay, you're an idealist. Do not change."

To a fault at times.... always have been, probably safe to assume I always will be.

She also wrote: "You will get all my referrals no matter what you charge."

DITTO!!

August 29, 2007 4:24 PM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

[Jay The Idealist sez: Or are you saying you can't compare representation to compensation? As in "comparing apple to oranges"?]

Exactly. Or you never could have done a deal for .34% any more than you could have done one for 190%

Directions are relative.

PS. You'll get over the idealist thing after you've been a broker in your own office for a year or two.

Sign me, Fallen Pollyanna  . . .  LOL

August 29, 2007 4:53 PM
Joe Leksich
Member Since '06

Joe Leksich said:

Ok,  Here is a tough question..

If I get a $50,000 commission check on the sale of a house and I rebate $25,000 of that commission to the buyer, who got a mortgage for this house, wouldn't the bank feel that they buyer misrepresented the deal?  Wouldn't that be walking the line of fraud?

August 29, 2007 4:57 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Hello Joe said

"If I get a $50,000 commission check on the sale of a house and I rebate $25,000 of that commission to the buyer, who got a mortgage for this house, wouldn't the bank feel that they buyer misrepresented the deal?  Wouldn't that be walking the line of fraud?"

------------------------------------------------------------------

No, if the deal is straight up, not a problem Joe at all..

Why would it, if you earn 50 grand and gave a rebate of 25K to your buyer make no difference to the bank at all, as a matter of fact much higher rebates have been paid to buyers.

I have had lenders put my buyers rebate on the HUD-1 some lender would some would not.

For those lenders who did not all I do is write a check to the buyers .

Oh and by the way, you may already be aware of it,,, home buyer rebates are tax free to the buyer and yourself...

Look at Ginnys deals above on what she is offering big money..

Vance home of rebates :)

August 29, 2007 5:38 PM
Ginny  Lee's Team
Member Since '03

Ginny Lee's Team said:

Vance or anyone feel  free to e-mail me at ginnylee@ginnylee.com

and I will e-mail you some e-mail flyers or pictures I have used or take them from my website....I love you to help me sell any of them and I woudl love to pay you....thanks so much!

August 29, 2007 5:50 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Ginny My email is on its way

I woudl love to pay you....thanks so much!

Well I would love to take it to ha ha ha

vance

August 29, 2007 5:58 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Oops how rude of me Ginny

Look at my site sites also and you cab also grab what may be of interest

I can explain some of the bigger deals you see there you are protected for your Internet leads and referrals, you do NOT have to be present at those sites to be compensated :)

I am getting paid for almost doing nothing, you can to :)

All sites are joined together

Vance

August 29, 2007 6:15 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

"I have had lenders put my buyers rebate on the HUD-1 some lender would some would not.

For those lenders who did not all I do is write a check to the buyers"

Cutting a buyer a check and not having it on the HUD-1 is illegal -- in Arizona. Other state laws may be different of course. ALWAYS check your state laws first!

August 29, 2007 6:27 PM
Karsten Torch
Member Since '06

Karsten Torch said:

I'm kind of confused on one thing...

OK, I agree that 12% is excessive, but guess what?  It worked.  Here we are talking about it.  And if you give a portion back to your buyer, then there should be no guilt involved.  However, what if you give half?  You are still taking 6%.  Is that wrong?  Where is the line?  10%?  8%?  Or is it the %53,000?  What about a $2,000,000 property?  Is it wrong to take $60,000 commission on that one?  Or is it OK because the market says that amount of commission is standard?  Did you really do any more work than for a $200,000 property?  

I use higher commissions to get homes sold, and don't really like incentives.  Agents around here tend to avoid those.  

Also, if you get the home for the buyer at market value or below, and they really like it, and they are convinced they got a good deal, is it really bad to get 4, 6, or even 12%?  

I know, a lot of questions.  Anybody have any good answers?

August 29, 2007 6:31 PM
Shelly  Constantz
Member Since '07

Shelly Constantz said:

Jay, I wrote this earlier and then got kicked out of relib.  Luckily I had copied it to my clipboard first:

Ok, this is what I was getting at when I did a blog a couple of months ago about the sacrosant 3% - 5%.  Jay, with your logic, you are speaking the discounted agents tune, just with different words. They don't understand how an agent could possibly keep that large commission, when they would be perfectly happy with 1.5% or 1%.  I just believe if we hold ourselves out as "better" because we wouldn't take 4 cookies when 2 cookies would do, we are on the slippery slope.

That seller has made a decision to keep the price of his home at a certain price.  he is willing to do whatever he wants with his money.  That is his decision.  What you do with that money is your decision.  

Just my humble 2cents.  what would I choose to do.  Nunya.

shelly

August 29, 2007 6:33 PM
Karsten Torch
Member Since '06

Karsten Torch said:

BTW - here in Georgia things seem to be a little confusing.  I am told that rebates back to buyers is illegal, but some do it anyway.  So I'm not really sure if it is or not.  But, what is the difference between a buyer rebate and an "inducement to buy", which IS illegal?

August 29, 2007 6:33 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

Karsten

Just go to the Georgia Real Commission web site its is all right there listen to no one until you see for yourself.

Visit my Georgia site for rebates you can even print out my rebate pdf forms..

Do your own home work, those who tell you it is Illegal dont have a clue and have that good old boy way of doing business

Offering a buyers/ sellers inducement rebate is perfectly legal

http://www.GeorgiaPeachRealEstate.com

Hope this helpd you clear up your concerns :)

Vance Mart

August 29, 2007 6:55 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

One more thing Karsten

Rebates is fairly new here and most Big shingle brokerages are feeling the pinch because of there traditional ways of doing business and have a big nut to pay each month, so they will tell you anything to believe that rebates are illegal..

I just had someone tell me that there broker would fire them if they discounted the commissions,,,, nice huh! it just so happens to be a Prudential office....in Florida..

Does anyone in your office offer rebates? show them my GA site that should turn some heads, and hear their response.:)

Vance

August 29, 2007 7:03 PM
Howard Arnoff
Member Since '03

Howard Arnoff said:

This is the post that I really wanted to see the comments on when I got in this evening. I can't believe this didn't get 5 stars and should be the easy winner for the day. Having said all that, a few additional thoughts.

imho, the issue is with excess. 12 is ridiculous. The property should be reduced by a significant amount rendering the need for rebates and disclosures of how much commission will be made by the agent and paid for by the buyer to be a moot point.

I am delighted to show a property that is paying a healthy commission. I am working a deal right now that will cost my buyer a little more but because it is paying 2.5, I'll actually make a little less than if he chooses the slightly less expensive property that paid 3.

But it isn't about me and my wallet.

It is about finding the best possible house for my client and after comparing the properties and asked for my opinion, I suggested the one that would pay me less.

As a listing agent, I will offer a bonus with no strings attached. It's pure motivation to have agents want to show the house and if they urge the client to buy for the sake of commission and bonus, so be it. I don't think any less of them for it.

As I said before, in this instance, 12 seems excessive.

August 29, 2007 7:05 PM
Vance Remele
Member Since '04

Vance Remele said:

August 29, 2007 7:14 PM
Shelly  Constantz
Member Since '07

Shelly Constantz said:

Howard, IF we offer a bonus or even a sellers concession (Like Closing Costs), I urge my seller to not add the string " on full price offer".  I tell them, you are telling the agent that the only way to get this bonus is with the full price offer, in other words, he isn't getting it.  You just defeated the purpose.  You may add, on an acceptable offer....  But not full price offer.  Just the way we do business.  

Shelly

August 29, 2007 7:15 PM
Abe Hantout
Member Since '07

Abe Hantout said:

Some agents seem to be equating accepting a high commission with lack of ethics or with being a sleazy agent for agreeing to accept a fee that is much higher than usual.  Some agents wouldn’t even accept it after the transaction is completed and then give it back to the buyer.

As a buyer’s agent we a have a fiduciary duty to offer the best and most professional representation of the buyer’s interest. When a buyer is interested in a house, we as agents do a reasonable amount of research in order to come up with the fairest market price for that particular property without regard of what the co-broke might be and we like for the buyer to get the best possible deal.

Consequently, the fact that the seller might have overpriced the house in order to cover the inflated commission will come up during our due diligence. We as professional and ethical agents have an obligation to inform the buyer of this fact, while telling the buyer what we believe the market price to be, based on our research. Professional buyers’ agents don’t just go and accept the listing price as gospel and negotiate from that point of reference, we create our own reference price based on facts and go from there.

If the buyer ends up paying a reasonable price below the real market value due to the professional work done by the agent, then the size of the co-broke commission should not enter into play. We should probably have more respect for the amount of professional service that we provide to the buyers and less disdain for the rare higher co-broke commissions that we don’t control.

My representation involves about 90% of being a buyer’s agent and in this market that means seeing a lot of houses before settling on the final one. Furthermore, in my area 2.5% co-broke is a high commission, so I’ll probably never see those “incredible commission fees”

August 29, 2007 7:17 PM
Abe Hantout
Member Since '07

Abe Hantout said:

Karsten,

Rebates in Georgia are not illegal. You have Zip Realty, of which I am an agent in another state, is well and alive offering rebates in Georgia.

August 29, 2007 7:24 PM
Howard Arnoff
Member Since '03

Howard Arnoff said:

Shelly, I agree with you completely, here is what I said, "As a listing agent, I will offer a bonus with no strings attached." Not contingent upon a full price offer, and of course, any offer that is accepted by the seller is an acceptable offer. I wish we had the ability to emphasize with either italics or bold in the comments.

August 29, 2007 7:38 PM
Norm Fisher
Member Since '06

Norm Fisher said:

Jay,

I agree with your position completely. This is one good reason why the fee should be negotiated with the buyer at the start of the relationship. If the co-broke comes up short the buyer makes up the difference. If it's more, it flows back to them. In my area, the buyer has a right to know how and what their agent is being paid.

Let's face it folks, this amounts to "bribing" the buyer's agent to put the screws to his or her client. Whether you would do it or not is besides the point. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

August 29, 2007 8:06 PM
Shelly  Constantz
Member Since '07

Shelly Constantz said:

Howard, I'm sorry, I understood you.  I was just agreeing with you : )

Shelly

August 29, 2007 8:12 PM
Joe Leksich
Member Since '06

Joe Leksich said:

Abe,

I agree with your train of though.  If the house is "Fair Market Value" and they still want to pay the buyers agent a spif than that is ok.  But in todays ever changing market "Fair Market Value" is very subjective.  

Jay,

Great Subject & Post.

August 29, 2007 8:30 PM
Mipeco Realty, Inc -  Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner
Member Since '03

Mipeco Realty, Inc - Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner said:

I do offer higher coop from time to time. Not to make the agent sell the place but if my listing is just one out of another 400 of the same size in the same price range, it may give the listing a better chance of actually being shown!

As to beying on the higher coop / bonus recepient's side ... here's my latest store ...

I was negotiating a deal for my buyer couple weeks back that had a bonus on it. The buyer had a certain price in mind and the seller said he'd accept it only if he didn't have to pay the bonus to me ... how nice ... they should have mentioned they'd pay it only if they got a contract almost at the asking price ... anyway ... So the listing agents tells asks me if I'll give up the bonus ... and I said ... let me talk to my client and see what he decides to do. I call my client, telling him that there is a bonus to the buyers agent in place and that the seller will only accept the buyers offer price if I give up the bonus ... and I waited to see what my client's response would be.

Surprisingly, he tells me, go back to the seller and tell him I'll go up by $$$ (2/5 of the bonus in question) only if you get your whole bonus. At that point, my jaw dropped! ... I actually had a loyal client who wanted me to earn what in his words I "deserved" and was willing to risk loosing the house ... oh, by the way, we were in a multiple offer situation.  I collect my jaw from the floor and call the listing agent with the response ... by then, she thinks I'm crazy and so is my client but my client's wishes are my client's wishes. So, the listing agent calls me back again, saying the seller will accept my client's latest offer, but will only give me 2/5 of the bonus and if I'll accept that ... and I told her, it's not up to me, it's my client's decision. BTW, though I never told my buyer, I was willing to give up the whole bonus from the very beginning but wanted to leave it up to the client). So I talk to my client again, telling him that 2/5 of the bonus will be fine with me because I know that it is a one of a kind house and isn't worth the risk of losing it over a part of the bonus. To cut the long story short, he still wanted me to ask at least for 3/5 of the bonus but I just told him, if you really want the house, I'll take the 2/5 and will be happy for you getting the house. ... and so we finally had a deal ...

and, by the way, the way this whole bonus was mentioned in the MLS, I didn't even know the bonus was still available when we brought the offer. It was the listing agent who mentioned the bonus when we started negotiating and I just went with it. I figured if nothing else, it would leave a little room for negotiating the price down for my buyer. Overall, it was a fun one!

August 29, 2007 8:51 PM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Wowsa, what a great string of comments!  That's what I love about this place. Throw out an idea, thought or opinion and you can get a multitude of fabulous, well thought out responses. Whether I/you disagree, agree or whatever is not the point.

Thanks to all for chiming in! I'd like to respond to each and every comment, but hey, I'm tired!

I can say that Norm pretty much summed up my opinion short and sweet when he said, "Let's face it folks, this amounts to "bribing" the buyer's agent to put the screws to his or her client. Whether you would do it or not is besides the point. It shouldn't be allowed to happen."

Howard - as for the stars, it's no big deal to me. Someone "one-star'ed" it shortly after I posted it.  They are entitled to their opinion. I do wish whoever felt it was a "poor" post would have commented as to why, it would have been interesting to hear their opinion.

August 29, 2007 11:18 PM
Abe Hantout
Member Since '07

Abe Hantout said:

Joe,

I agree with you that "Fair Market Value" is subjective within certain time constraints and price parameters. That is the main reason buyers use a professional representative to sort out all the subjective data and make the final decision a very objective proposition.

Buyers don't use our services just to show them houses, but rather expect us, as they should, to come up with sound information regarding many relevant housing facts, including financial value.

August 30, 2007 5:00 AM
Vance Remele
Member Since '06

Vance Remele said:

The Sacrosanct 6% Commission -- How about 12%?!

I can say that Norm pretty much summed up my opinion short and sweet when he said, "Let's face it folks, this amounts to "bribing" the buyer's agent to put the screws to his or her client. Whether you would do it or not is besides the point. It shouldn't be allowed to happen."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Well this thread is based on a hypothecal 12% commission

Commissions are not sacred, and can be any amount that has been agreed upon along with any and all bonuses offered.

In the real world of home sellers and home buyers rebates, inducements whatever you want call them does not amount to bribing anyone, at anytime at anyplace and I am stunned that word is even used.

It is a matter of choice as to what a Realtor©/Agent decision is at that time on what approach they will take to this 12% commission being offered, if you feel uncomfortable with taking the full 12% then take lets say only 3% since that is what the so call sacred co-broke is.

The last I new was we work for the sellers and buyers and not the other way around.

I believe all of this comes down to one thing.

That being the full service discount brokerages Vs the big shingle Franchise brokerages.

How many of the big major franchises brokerages do you see advertising to the public in the major markets around the country any form of incentives to the home buyers or home sellers in the form of cash rebates or inducements?

I thought so... zero..

So now we have this tug of war between the old ways of Traditional ways of doing real estate, and the new non traditional ways way of doing business of giving something back to the home sellers and home buyers.

Its not about commissions, rebates, ethics, bribing, its about (Change!)

The changes that have been taking place over these past few years are just the beginning of this change to open up competition in the real estate markets

lets us not forget,

That the National Association Of Realtors we are members of is being sued by The Department Of Justice for anti competitive practices.

Did you know that there are only 9 states left that do Not allow rebates or inducements in our profession?

That hypothecal 12% commission mention above in reality is real.

Norm

"Let's face it folks, this amounts competition, and  Is allowed to happen."

( The Choice Is Yours!)

Well I have to run now,I need to buy a new car and the incentives are great $6,000 rebate with zero % financing for 5 years.

I am not saying that it is a "poor post'' what I am saying is that it is out of touch with Reality in the real world today..

This response should fire everyone up this morning, but you ask for opinions, you got it :)

VanceMart

August 30, 2007 6:55 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

[Shellz the BIC sez: I just believe if we hold ourselves out as "better" because we wouldn't take 4 cookies when 2 cookies would do, we are on the slippery slope.}

You're so wise, Shelly! Representation does not and never will be the same as compensation. What we do or do not earn is our business. Try asking your doctor, CPA or lawyer for a cut.  It's okay to command and earn what your business and life require you earn. THERE IS NO STANDARD.

Although one of my buddies says she's now getting finders fees from her cosmetic surgeon for referring friends! Go figure.

August 30, 2007 7:32 AM
Shelly  Constantz
Member Since '07

Shelly Constantz said:

Norm Said:

Let's face it folks, this amounts to "bribing" the buyer's agent to put the screws to his or her client. Whether you would do it or not is besides the point. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

__________________________________________________________

Well, you are singing the limited service agencies tune now!!  They can't believe you would put the screws to your buyers and accept 3% when 1% would do.  

Are you with a limited service company Norm?

Shelly

August 30, 2007 7:40 AM
Candice A Donofrio
Member Since '07

Candice A Donofrio said:

Y'know, there is a commercial broker out my way who travels all over the country doing big big big deals (I wanna be him when I grow up. LOL) and he told me some of the fees he charges. Without going into great detail here, he gets PAID in big flashy caps.

His knowledge and expertise with multiple commercial markets draws the big bucks. He determines his fee based on the job. He does not cut or share his fee. It's what he gets paid for what he does.

We're in business, not indentured, and if you put a ceiling on what you are worth, you are cheating yourself.

August 30, 2007 7:47 AM
Karsten Torch
Member Since '06

Karsten Torch said:

One more thought to this whole thing.  I see folks talking about big brokers and their not doing rebates or incentives, like it's a bad thing.  Guess what - I don't have to.  I do very well, and a majority of my business is referral.  I don't feel like I need to buy my clients.  I'm not saying everybody who kicks back does need to, but seriously, why give it away when you don't have to?  I work hard, actually harder than when I had my 12 hour a day 6 days a week job.  And if I get 4 or 5% for selling a home (I tend to agree that 12% is excessive) and it was one of the easiest sales I have ever had, chances are it just made up for the seriously large pain-in-the-ass (I know, not a nice word, but "butt" just isn't strong enough for some of the deals) closing I just had that paid me 2.5% on a $100,000 property.  You win some, you lose some....

August 30, 2007 8:53 AM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Dearest Shellz - twice now you've said that those who are in the "12% is excessive" camp are singing the limited service agent tune.

I don't get that argument. Please help me understand it. Perhaps it's a perfectly valid argument, I just don't quite see where you're coming from.

I'm not proposing "discount brokerage". I consider myself a "full-service" agent. (actually, I consider myself beyond full-service).

It's difficult to define "excessive commission". I don't know who said it, some politician I think, but he was asked to define pornography. He said something along the lines of, "I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it".

That pretty much sums up my opinion of this particular co-broke in this particular scenario. I can't give you a hard and fast definition of "excessive commission" but in this case I see it as just that.

How does that make me a discount broker?

August 30, 2007 10:40 AM
Jay & Francy Thompson  REALTORS®
Member Since '05

Jay & Francy Thompson REALTORS® said:

Vance wrote: "I am not saying that it is a "poor post'' what I am saying is that it is out of touch with Reality in the real world today.."

Hmmmmm.... so I am "out of touch with reality" because I think taking 12% for one side of the commission in a straight residential resale is excessive?  

I'm not sure I buy that Vance.  In fact, I think I could argue that it's very IN touch with reality. We as an industry are constantly assaulted for our commission practices. Poll the general real estate consumer population and see what they have to say about an agent taking 12% for one side of a residential resale. I don't think I have to tell you what the general consensus would be...

Again, I'm not advocating "discounting" or "rebating". We all work very hard at what we do. Far harder than the layman will ever know or accept. We are worth what we get paid.

Perhaps it's just me. *I* can't find a way to justify to myself or a buyer client why I should earn $53,000 for selling him a $450,000 home.  Of COURSE my expertise is worth something. And yes, Lord knows I've had more than my share of pain-in-the-ass clients where I've wound up with ZERO. But to take that out on Joe Buyer and bilk him for 53 grand doesn't sit right with me. I knew going into this business that I would work many hours for nothing. If I don't like that, I should get out.

We're in a capitalistic society. You can get whatever someone will pay for. Yes, I could argue that if the seller is willing to pay me 53 grand I should take it and laugh all the way to the bank. And if someone decides to do that, I honestly don't care. I don't think it makes them a bad, evil, or unethical person. They are taking the offered commission.

*I* wouldn't take that much in this case. That doesn't make me better than someone who would, just different. It also doesn't mean I wouldn't take a 12% commission EVER. There are scenarios where I would take that or more. I *have* taken that much in a large, very complicated land transaction where I represented multiple parties. But in a buy side SFH residential resale? Nope, not this kid. If that makes me stupid, foolish, an idealist or a discount broker, so be it. Those are just labels. I've been called a lot worse over the last 46 years.

Again, thanks to ALL for the great discussion!! I love this place!

August 30, 2007 11:00 AM
Cathy  Clark
Member Since '06

Cathy Clark said:

Well, this is definitely a great discussion.  I had to think long and hard about this one because I was almost feeling guilty.

Now that I've caught up, I'm going to have to paraphrase and expand on a comment I made on another post.

As long as it's disclosed and had no bearing on the showing or the sale, I don't see a problem with accepting a bonus.  Hell, in corporate America they're given out all the time!  Take a look at your average CEO's compensation plan, for heaven's sake!  Now THAT's immoral!  When I worked at the insurance company, every single one of my goals was aimed at that bonus, baby!  One year I earned more in bonus $ than my regular salary.  I had no problem depositing that check.

Far be it from me to turn down a legal paycheck.  College, orthodonture and retirement are expensive.  I would be doing my kids and myself a disservice if I said "Oh no, that's allright, you keep the money."  Sorry, Jay, I think that's a big mistake.

I've had Buyers and Sellers tell me they thought I should be paid more than I was.  I've also taken some hits to get people into their homes.  And I should look a gift horse in the mouth when that pendulum swings my way, for a change?  I don't think so!

As long as Buyer and Seller are happy with their own bottom lines....I say go for it.

August 30, 2007 11:10 AM
Mipeco Realty, Inc -  Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner
Member Since '03

Mipeco Realty, Inc - Michaela Krestenic, Broker-Owner said:

let